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Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum The place to start for the Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 | GT86


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Old 08-18-2013, 09:17 AM   #183
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People are selling their cars because of threads like this http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44582
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Old 08-18-2013, 09:51 AM   #184
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After reading this thread, I perused the classified section. Many sellers explained why... the most recent posts:
"potential cuts at work are making me shrink my expenses"
"my job has me traveling around"
"I plan on going back to school"
"I want a BRZ limited instead"
"I am getting the urge to build an RWB 964"
"I'm short as heck on money"
So money is clearly the biggest reason. I think the hype surrounding these cars pushed many people into buying something they really could not afford.. Emotion over reason...
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:11 AM   #185
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People are selling their cars because of threads like this http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44582

Its already in the chic car class around here. I bought he first one in the county. Wife and daughter thought it was so cool and said so glad you bought this instead of a Miata. A year later my teenage daughter says "only girls drive those cars."

I could care less as I've saved my whole life to afford a new real drivers sports car like this. Before its popularity started to die off I was hoping it would be the right wheel drive eg civic we all wanted. Popularity and mass volume sales brings low maintenance/parts costs.

But reliability has taken its toll on this wonderful new platform:

http://www.truedelta.com/Scion-FR-S/...MX-5-Miata-175
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:52 AM   #186
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Muscle cars... really... I had this POS and never had an issue in the rain, but it sucked at cornering even in dry roads...




You're fighting a losing battle, son... Granted... american cars are the biggest pile of shit to roam this earth.

BTW, it's bimmer, not beemer
Not sure about fighting a losing battle, son. Regarding muscles cars just because you had a bad experience does not mean they are big POS. That's simply your opinion and I would not base it off of a Mustang GT. The Z06 is something you will never see out in the rain often for many reasons. Mainly because it is not fun/worth it to drive in those conditions.
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:56 AM   #187
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I have experience with both.....All three have been DD's. No issue in the rain with any of them. M3 was stock, both Cobras, were pullied, tuned and ported. 500 rwhp on both the Mustangs.

both my girls meeting for the first time (still good friends with both owners of my cobras)



And my M3
True story. There's another account as I am sure of plenty others that were good with driving their RWD in the rain. I have also mentioned snow. SOOOO. If you say it was great in the snow then I will take my hat off to you. And my aunt drove a 1995 Ford Thunderbird SC and her and my uncle will attest to how much that car sucks in the rain.
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Old 08-18-2013, 12:00 PM   #188
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We will go back and forth all day long. There are going to be people that will have accounts for both sides. Yet ultimately the general consensus will be FWD for rain and snow especially. What makes it most difficult is that it gets cold and rainy here so RWD is less common around here. FWD/AWD/4x4 is what I see a lot of.
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Old 08-18-2013, 01:42 PM   #189
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True story. There's another account as I am sure of plenty others that were good with driving their RWD in the rain. I have also mentioned snow. SOOOO. If you say it was great in the snow then I will take my hat off to you. And my aunt drove a 1995 Ford Thunderbird SC and her and my uncle will attest to how much that car sucks in the rain.
You were asking for examples of "real RWD" cars in the rain...I just had a couple examples as the cobras were my daily drivers for a combined 5 years. I got the joy of driving one in one of the worst storms we have ever seen in San Diego. I was actually surprised how well it habdled in the rain. As far as snow is concerned, we don't see that much here in San Diego
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Old 08-18-2013, 01:57 PM   #190
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You were asking for examples of "real RWD" cars in the rain...I just had a couple examples as the cobras were my daily drivers for a combined 5 years. I got the joy of driving one in one of the worst storms we have ever seen in San Diego. I was actually surprised how well it habdled in the rain. As far as snow is concerned, we don't see that much here in San Diego
Definitely a good example of a powerful RWD sports car. It may have handled well in the rain for you. I have met and know way too many people that prefer FWD over RWD in the rain. These are excellent or even superb drivers. Too many have explained driving on the interstate and feeling quite uneasy just waiting for the rear end to give way when it's raining. FWD will keep a straight line when hydroplaning where RWD will get loose and may go in an unpredictable direction. Now, there are some well designed RWD applications that do quite well in the rain/wet. But scouring the net will show many RWD owners putting their cars up if they have other vehicles to drive. As far as snow goes, FWD is superior because it is pulling not pushing the car. Skill set of the driver has a lot to do with driving in wet/snowy conditions. I am sure you are good driver thus feeling comfortable with your Cobra in the rain. Not many feel that way though.

P.S. That was my favorite stang to date. Very close to buying one years ago.
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:47 PM   #191
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The Z06 is something you will never see out in the rain often for many reasons. Mainly because it is not fun/worth it to drive in those conditions.
I think the main reason Z06s are not out in the rain is because the owners are anal retentive about getting their vettes dirty and depreciating them. They are perfectly fine in the rain otherwise so long as your tires are not bald and you are not stupid.

FWD is easier in most situations to drive because it requires less driver skill to drive in most weather conditions. It will not save you from hydroplaning or trying to corner too fast in the snow or other stupid actions.

I see more AWD crashes in the bad weather conditions than RWD simply because the owners are overconfident in their AWD and have no skills or common sense.

Handling a car in the rain versus a car that handles well in the rain are different things. RWD cars can be raced in the rain on a track why can't they be driven in the rain safely at much lower speeds? Blame the drivers not the car.
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:25 PM   #192
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btw i had a turbo'd 99 trans am and a turbo'd 2010 mustang that I drove for a combined 9 years in the snow on both. I also had a 91 rwd silverado 1500. Out of all 3, the truck was the worst in snow.

RWD is not hard to handle in the snow, but I would say between all configurations, it is more difficult than the rest.

I also had a fiero that I drovee 2-3 times in the snow. I would never do that again haha
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:44 PM   #193
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It is all about tire. I don't care if the car is RWD or FWD, with good tires that can handle rain (I.e. good set of dedicated summer tires) or snow in the winter (i.e. good set of winter tires) I am good to go.
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:50 PM   #194
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So this isn't a dig at anyone because there are still a handful of dealerships that are charging near, if not more, than new MSRP, but it seems like a lot of people think their car is worth a few grand more than it realistically is. I'm finally seeing them drop down to ~21-22k, advertised by dealerships, and they normally leave a little bit of haggling room as well. I understand that this short into the game people might be upside down still, but that's the way you play it when you sell a one-year-old car.

No worries though, I'm waiting for them to come down to the high teens.
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Old 08-18-2013, 04:00 PM   #195
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Handling a car in the rain versus a car that handles well in the rain are different things. RWD cars can be raced in the rain on a track why can't they be driven in the rain safely at much lower speeds? Blame the drivers not the car.
A-freakin'-men.

How quickly people forget that, until just the past three decades or so, almost every vehicle on the road was RWD. And tire technology sucked. And people still made it to work everyday just fine.

I drove a 400whp GTO for 5 years of some of the worst winters Nebraska ever had. With the exception of a 22" snowfall that kept me from driving because I simply couldn't clear the snow, I never so much as had even an uncontrollable slide with consistent 4+ months of snow/ice on the ground -- that's more than I could say for my wife's Mazda3 or my previous Mazda6 which were 'superior' FWD. The difference? Proper tires (which includes the under-appreciated proper SIZING as well). With a good pair of meaty snow tires (-3" from my summer wheels), that GTO became a mountain goat and I pulled more than a few trucks with embarrassed owners out of snowbanks with it.

As for rain, your average RWD vehicle is almost certainly (and definitely should) going to be equipped with Summer Performance tires that are actually usually the best Wet tires you can buy as well. Driving rentals (I travel all-week, every-week) rain is always a far more un-nerving experience than driving my own high-horsepower, RWD vehicles is.

For some reason the tire industry has convinced people that All-Season is the way to go for tires. It's not. "All-Season" really means "No-Season". They're a series of compromises that makes a tire okay-ish to drive all-year round, but not very well at any of them.

Shitty drivers with shitty tires -- sure, that's a recipe for "unpredictable" car behavior. My RWD vehicles, even with over 400whp, have NEVER acted "unpredictably" in snow or ice simply because I recognize that I'm operating on snow and ice and change my driving behavior appropriately. The act of hydro-planing occurring is obviously a lot more unpredictable, however that is not to say that the way the car reacts is. I've hydro-planed several times in vehicles, including twice in a FWD one -- I found the RWD vehicles (including a rental I had little experience with) not only no more "unpredictable" or "uncontrollable" than the FWD one to handle in such loss-of-traction conditions but were actually easier to get back under control.

Manufacturers have moved to FWD simply because of the uneducated, uninterested, or totally retarded masses who just want to get to Wal-Mart. It's just easier most of the time because they don't have to think as much about what they're doing. Kinda like how "All-Seasons" are just easier than trying to get people to remember to use the right tire for the right season. But for those who have some clue what they're doing, the ability to have full range of control over both your steering and your throttle independently of one another makes RWD superior even in ice and snow. The only real issue that RWD vehicles tend to have is that they're, on average, too low to get around well in the snow and, on average, sports cars (generally RWD) tend to be quite light, which is a very undesired attribute for either snowy or very wet conditions.

I don't think I've ever seen an loss-of-traction accident involving a FWD vehicle where the emergency responder didn't show up in a RWD one -- and he does it, day-in, day-out, all winter long. It's the driver, not the car.
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Old 08-18-2013, 04:33 PM   #196
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Sigma- it's funny I hydroplanes more in my 2011 jeep wrangler than my 09 tc. Thing is with snow or ice storms I'm stuck. My driveway is steep that I have issues with 4 wheel drive getting down
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