Blown Headgasket ?

[regal]

On reason I bought this Scion because of Toyota's great overall long term reliable 4 cylinder engine track record.

After the honeymoon period it really sunk in that this is a Subaru engine, (I know the flat four should have tipped me off!) My only knowledge of subary H-4's were the early 90's and 80's engines that seemed bullet proof (a relative owns a 91 Subaru with 300k with no engine issues ever.)

I found this site below, which is just littered with horror stories of Subaru's track record with head gaskets on the N/A H4's they have designed over the last 15 years. Very scary stuff:

http://allwheeldriveauto.com/subaru-...ems-explained/

Sounds like the issue typically doesn't start showing up until 3-4 years or after the 60k warranty ends. The biggest issue is replacing them is a huge job, much more labor intensive than a typical Toyota I-4, talking removing the engine putting it on a stand to even get to the gaskets.


Have there been any reports of head gasket failures with this FA20 ?

[Cheddar]

Once again iv stated in this site multiple times that nothing last forever. Everything has a failure rate. If there is 5million Subaru engines in the world (I’m sure it’s less) and let’s say 5000 have headgasket failures, that’s a 1% fail rate. This is not bad in the industry. Also you need to look at the abuse those engines’ take.

Cosworth has stated that this is the best flat 4 Subaru has put out in its history.
And we will see multiple ppl on the forum with boosted applications running fine.

Iv personally have hit the 10000 mile mark and iv had no uses with this engine at this point and id say I have my spirted drive here and there so the engine does get its little beating here and there.

[ft_sjo]

FUD.

[SloS14]

Holy misleading title batman.

[Fish Eagle]

I've got a 10 year old 2.5XT turbo Forester, and my wife drives a 9 year old 2.5 Impreza Sportwagon RS, and we hammer them mercilessly.
Well, at least I do. My wife's a bit gentler on hers...

Neither have had any engine issues whatsoever, and I've never heard about head gaskets being a problem with H4's.
I have the utmost faith in Subaru flat 4 engines, and I'm expecting my FA20 to live long and strong too.

In a combined 19 years of Subaru ownership, we've had to replace a clutch on the Impreza and rear shocks on the Forester.
Other than that, only routine servicing and tyres.

[Mikem53]

And how many people reported that they have no issues?
Before u come to any conclusions, realize the percentage of issues
Vs non issues.
Subie learns from their mistakes like most companies do..
That Toyota is not going to let their reputation be at risk by
Allowing problem prone engines to exist under their nameplate.
I would also bet that many of those issues were caused by abuse,
Modifications, etc...
This is a new engine created under the watchful eye of a company known for
It's reliability and technical know how..
So don't let it keep you up at night.. I'm sure your gaskets will be fine..

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Fish Eagle

I've got a 10 year old 2.5XT turbo Forester, and my wife drives a 9 year old 2.5 Impreza Sportwagon RS, and we hammer them mercilessly.
Well, at least I do. My wife's a bit gentler on hers...

Neither have had any engine issues whatsoever, and I've never heard about head gaskets being a problem with H4's.
I have the utmost faith in Subaru flat 4 engines, and I'm expecting my FA20 to live long and strong too.

In a combined 19 years of Subaru ownership, we've had to replace a clutch on the Impreza and rear shocks on the Forester.
Other than that, only routine servicing and tyres.

EJ25 is known for head gasket problem (turbo is bearing problem more)... iirc Subaru did re-call on this problem.

But Toyota is well known for head gasket problem too (mkiii supra).

I had to change the blown gaskets on my GM6 (2.5RS coupe). I was racing every month in the summer for several yrs, so it's not the same as defective head gaskets.

My point to the OP is, if you search around, there's always a negative thing bout the car production.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Cheddar

Cosworth has stated that this is the best flat 4 Subaru has put out in its history.
.

That is a good sign, awesome really 'cause Subaru made some bullet proof engines in the 70's, we had a freid with a 500k suby wagon on its original engine.

Also I see where folks are turbo-ing to 18+psi on the stock long block, this should be a good indication that the head gasket and mating surfaces are a solid design.

[Chimpo]

Originally Posted by Cheddar

Once again iv stated in this site multiple times that nothing last forever. Everything has a failure rate. If there is 5million Subaru engines in the world (I’m sure it’s less) and let’s say 5000 have headgasket failures, that’s a 1% fail rate. This is not bad in the industry. Also you need to look at the abuse those engines’ take.

Actually a 1% failure rate (speaking within warranty period, but there is concern for afterwards since no one would expect a 4 or 5 year old car to have head gasket failure which would lead to you never buying a car from that OEM again under the perception they are junk) in this industry is horrific. An IPTV of 10 (which is 1%) would get A TON OF ATTENTION.

If one out of every one hundred cars needed engine repair (and now I'll make up numbers like you did) that was $1000 per car it's performed on (pull engine, remove timing belt, pull head, fix, reverse reverse) means $1000 of lost money per 100 cars built, which is $100000 per 1000 cars built, which is $1000000 per 10000 cars built. Suddenly a 1% failure rate adds up quick.

And again, don't forget the long term reliablilty. Making it thru warranty period is fine, but if the car falls apart after 5 years ain't no one buying from you again. And of course, in full disclosure, you're right if the issue didn't cause a financial blip, they may be more lax on fixing it (also depends on severity result of part failure... vehicle un-driveable, etc?)

[FRiSson]

Originally Posted by Chimpo

Actually a 1% failure rate (speaking within warranty period, but there is concern for afterwards since no one would expect a 4 or 5 year old car to have head gasket failure which would lead to you never buying a car from that OEM again under the perception they are junk) in this industry is horrific. An IPTV of 10 (which is 1%) would get A TON OF ATTENTION.

If one out of every one hundred cars needed engine repair (and now I'll make up numbers like you did) that was $1000 per car it's performed on (pull engine, remove timing belt, pull head, fix, reverse reverse) means $1000 of lost money per 100 cars built, which is $100000 per 1000 cars built, which is $1000000 per 10000 cars built. Suddenly a 1% failure rate adds up quick.

And again, don't forget the long term reliablilty. Making it thru warranty period is fine, but if the car falls apart after 5 years ain't no one buying from you again. And of course, in full disclosure, you're right if the issue didn't cause a financial blip, they may be more lax on fixing it (also depends on severity result of part failure... vehicle un-driveable, etc?)

Six sigma dude.

[Chimpo]

Originally Posted by FRiSson

Six sigma dude.

You can get them to get green / black belts, but that doesn't mean you're clear from someone every now and then brain farting and settling on parts with a factor of safety of 1.0 under optimal (i.e. not real world; what fantasy land are you living in???) conditions.

[ahausheer]

Check consumer reports. You will see that whatever was causing the problem (that was categorized as ''engine major'') has been completely resolved on all of their models. They went from solid black dot to solid red. They have fixed their head gasket issues. But even the most reliable cars still have shit go wrong, its simply statistics.

[regal]

Originally Posted by ahausheer

Check consumer reports. You will see that whatever was causing the problem (that was categorized as ''engine major'') has been completely resolved on all of their models. They went from solid black dot to solid red. They have fixed their head gasket issues. But even the most reliable cars still have shit go wrong, its simply statistics.

Reserching the issue, I agree with the statistics and understand 6 sigma, but even the simplistic SPC chart of headgasket fails per 1 hundred vehicles showe a huge jump out of control when the 2.5 NA was released. Reading reports the issue didn't correlate to miles driven as much as age (corrosion/degredation) and typically showed up just after the power train warranty ended. Compare to a Toyota 1.5 NZ statistics would show a huge significant difference looking at 200k+, something the 6-sigma auto engineers aren't too concerned with.

I'm not saying we are doomed at all, but it just looks like this is something to keep on the radar. Anything that can be done to minimize the odds, I would recommend never skipping the recommended coolant flush intervals and also using an oil with good corrosion resistance as well as the "severe" 3500 mile oci. Also look for signs of battery cable salt build up as this indicates corrosion inside the engine taking place. The bad thing about the failures is time is the biggest influence, so we may not ever see the issue or it could start popping up in 4 years.

I plan on tracking the % antifreeze and sodium in my oil, hopefully it will remain zero and never see a spike .I did have the ECU recall but that's just software and has been corrected.

Hopefully this engine will prove bullet proof like the Subaru H4's from the 70's, 80's, and early 90's.

I may be one of the few who buy a new car with full intention of keeping it 20 years, I don't think we will see another design like this pltform it in the future, the industry is just not moving in the direction of lightweight rwd sports coupes.

To me it is amazing that Toyota and Subaru have been able to abstract 200hp out of this 2.0L H4 and I get 28 mpg driving a very hilly rural commute. Sometimes an engine like is over engineered (robust) in the first gen, and all indications are pointing toward that, which can be a great thing for folks who are satisfied with the stock 6.5 second 0-60 and want to keep it on the road for 200k+/20 years. Things are pointing to this being this type of engine. An example of an over engineered engine would be the Subaru EA engine, introduced in a time where US cars were at a low time reliability, the engine proved to last a half a million miles when maintained. The FIRST gen EJ was very reliable, it wasn't until the second gen EJ that things became troublesome.

Sounds like this FA may be a return to bullet proof Subaru H4 reliability.

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by regal

I may be one of the few who buy a new car with full intention of keeping it 20 years, I don't think we will see another design like this pltform it in the future, the industry is just not moving in the direction of lightweight rwd sports coupes.

Actually I disagree with this. Now that people are seeing how successful the twins are, Nissan and Chevrolet are looking to bring a product to market to compete. If they do well, we might see even more. And the industry in general has been putting more focus on dropping weight from the vehicles, as far as I've seen. They're still going to be heavy because of regs and whatnot, but I think they're trying to shed lbs here and there.