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Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum The place to start for the Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 | GT86


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Old 08-10-2016, 10:13 PM   #85
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Realistically weather will swing a lap time by greater than 2s even in a single day.
Depends what you mean by weather. A 10 degree difference wouldn't, maybe a 30 degree difference would.

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They're better than the vast majority of us. These guys drive tracks on a regular basis. I wouldn't compare times across years, but I think it's more than fair to compare within the year on a general basis.
Yeah from what I understand they are basically instructor level drivers. Instructor does not mean professional, but it'd be strange to disregard their times because they're amateurs. For example we know the S2000 is faster than the 86 in autocross from regional and national autocross results, despite it being amateur level competition.
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:27 PM   #86
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Depends what you mean by weather. A 10 degree difference wouldn't, maybe a 30 degree difference would.
Wouldn't a swing from 60 degrees pavement temp in the morning or on a cloudy day vs. 90 degrees pavement temp at 3pm on a sunny day be totally plausible weather conditions for Virginia? Especially given the test time in late fall?
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:27 PM   #87
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I you make a point of not upshifting to the next higher gear when you are around 3000 RPMs you won't need to downshift so often.

For example at say 55 MPH stay in 5th, or at 40 MPH stay in 4th.

This car likes to cruise ABOVE 3000 RPMs. You will ocassionaly find the engine bogs under excessive load if you, like many others, get right up to the highest gear possible at a given speed and end up cruising at 2500RPMs therabouts. If you watch the instantaneous mileage gauge you will find the car seems to maximize efficiency cruising at ~3200 revs.

If you need to climb a hill or accelerate you will zip past the torque dip and if you REALLY need power cruise above 4000 revs, where you are almost out of the dip.
This car comes with such a nice manual gearbox I don't get why people don't like to downshift. I cruise in 6th gear at 2000 RPM at around 40 MPH all the time. There is just enough torque to hold your speed and nothing more. No passing power and that's fine. Because if I really need to get up and go, I clutch in, blip the throttle and do a 6 to 2 downshift and I'm gone. If I'm on the highway, then it's 6 to 3. That is what makes driving a manual fun. That plus clutch dumps, chirping tires on upshifts, kicking out the back end mid turn and all that other good stuff. But that's another story.

Now if you don't want to downshift because you don't like all the noise it makes at high RPM, ok I can understand that. But you can plug the sound tube and it will be much quieter

I think the FR-S needs to have an AVCS light the way the Civic SI has a i-VTEC light. I know it's really gimmicky but I think we need it on our car so people know that if it doesn't light up, you're driving it wrong.
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:33 PM   #88
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They're better than the vast majority of us. These guys drive tracks on a regular basis. I wouldn't compare times across years, but I think it's more than fair to compare within the year on a general basis.
the thing is, driver skill is the biggest determinant of track times. When you get to the pro level, especially pros that win, they are all able to squeeze out like >99% out of the cars so the variance between pros isn't that great. Even then the lap times can vary from test to test on different days by like a second.

So is a 2 second difference significant? I don't know. I don't know anything about the drivers. Maybe one is 3 seconds slower than the other. Maybe one doesn't drive that type of car well. Maybe they had a bad day. Professional car driver reviewers regularly beat the "magazine" lap times by 5 seconds or sometimes more, so 2 seconds isn't that big a difference when you take into account driver skill.

The 2 tests were also on different years.

also no one can really verify cause no one else runs that stupid vir grand east course config.
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:55 PM   #89
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Wouldn't a swing from 60 degrees pavement temp in the morning or on a cloudy day vs. 90 degrees pavement temp at 3pm on a sunny day be totally plausible weather conditions for Virginia? Especially given the test time in late fall?
They've postponed/rescheduled testing in the past when they thought changes in weather would make a big enough difference to swing the results. Specifically to your question though, their methodology is to distribute the cars among 4 editors and run laps over the period of a few days. (I.e., no car would be scheduled to run solely in the morning or afternoon.) They then record fastest times for each car, then will periodically re-check using a different driver. There's some debate how consistent their driving is, but at least according to C/D there's never been more than a 0.5 second difference. That's a reasonably tight window over a 3 minute course.

More than weather or driving, I think the bigger factor on internal consistency would be the re-paving that happened at VIR. But again that skews in favor of the ND since it ran after the course was made faster.
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Old 08-10-2016, 11:01 PM   #90
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Going back to the OP...looking past the obvious convertible aspects of the Miata, I think people tend to "feel" the Miata is a more fun ride is because of body roll. The body roll of the new Miata gives you that feeling of the car about to break loose I think, and the newest Miata has massive body roll. Go to your next local autocross event and watch a new Miata go down a slalom, it looks very intense. The twins don't really give you that feeling of body roll thus to someone not really familiar with the car would probably think its boring compared to the Miata that throws you around.
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Old 08-10-2016, 11:17 PM   #91
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If the torque "dip" is an issue for you when passing or merging you are in the wrong gear. This is driving.
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Old 08-11-2016, 01:04 AM   #92
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Going back to the OP...looking past the obvious convertible aspects of the Miata, I think people tend to "feel" the Miata is a more fun ride is because of body roll. The body roll of the new Miata gives you that feeling of the car about to break loose I think, and the newest Miata has massive body roll. Go to your next local autocross event and watch a new Miata go down a slalom, it looks very intense. The twins don't really give you that feeling of body roll thus to someone not really familiar with the car would probably think its boring compared to the Miata that throws you around.
To add a bit to this post ....... if the Miata owner doesn't like the suspension dynamics, for $275 and an hour of labor, one can change out the sway bars...


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Old 08-11-2016, 01:09 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by DarkSunrise View Post
Yeah from what I understand they are basically instructor level drivers. Instructor does not mean professional, but it'd be strange to disregard their times because they're amateurs. For example we know the S2000 is faster than the 86 in autocross from regional and national autocross results, despite it being amateur level competition.
All good points. I bet there are a few that are capable of going very fast. Instructor is a broad category.
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Old 08-11-2016, 01:13 AM   #94
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didn't read through the whole thread but... if you're worried about what people think by a camry.

And if your implying people don't talk negatively about the miata idk what rock you've been living under.... every time miata gets mentioned the word "gay" follows shortly after.
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Old 08-11-2016, 01:15 AM   #95
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the thing is, driver skill is the biggest determinant of track times. When you get to the pro level, especially pros that win, they are all able to squeeze out like >99% out of the cars so the variance between pros isn't that great. Even then the lap times can vary from test to test on different days by like a second.

So is a 2 second difference significant? I don't know. I don't know anything about the drivers. Maybe one is 3 seconds slower than the other. Maybe one doesn't drive that type of car well. Maybe they had a bad day. Professional car driver reviewers regularly beat the "magazine" lap times by 5 seconds or sometimes more, so 2 seconds isn't that big a difference when you take into account driver skill.

The 2 tests were also on different years.

also no one can really verify cause no one else runs that stupid vir grand east course config.
Considering that we all drive a reportedly slow car, I doubt any of us care. Caranddriver does a great job of explaining how the cars actually are. Overall they're the best in the business. Jason cammisa is the best, but he's the only good writer at motor trend. I do miss the casba csere days of c and d.
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Old 08-11-2016, 01:47 AM   #96
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My grandma bought a Ford Falcon in 1965, had it painted bright pink...
Thanks but I already have a daily and money is not the issue on hand. I'm not going to argue about what 51hp must have felt like however many years ago but all I'm saying is trying to pass a car at 65mph feels like crap. I get why Toyota decided to go the route they did but an extra 50hp isn't asking for much. The car will pretty much be in the s2000 range of power and that's definitely more than enough for the street.
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That's why it has a 6 spd transmission and a gas pedal.
I see.
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LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
I daily drive for almost 50K miles a year. With 98% of that highway. Through all seasons.

You have to downshift is an issue somehow? That is called DRIVING. An uphill freeway requires full pedal? Where do you drive Mount Everest? I have never once in 2 years and almost 100K of Daily Driving thought "shit the car won't do it". Not once.

Has the act of driving become so diluted that having to downshift instead of just mashing a pedal to pass is "painful"? Unbelievable.
I only live in southern California but I don't see why I have to mash on my pedal just to pass a car.
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DANG! ......Apex-Apex ......

When you say you live near and commute around "Walnut" are you speaking of Walnut Creek, California .. ??

If so, where do you find a uphill freeway .. ??

If you are in commuter traffic, where do you find the space to even try to pass .. ??

Now, if you commute up to Mt Diablo ...... you could use more passing power .....

I lived in Danville for a couple of years and commuted to Richmond, back in the 70's ...... but, maybe things have changed ......



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I live in Walnut, CA by Pomona, CA which is in the south. When I used to commute, I go against the traffic so there's room to pass but I would need ample space to pass. Again, this is just based on my opinions and observations. I understand everyone has their thought on this.
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Old 08-11-2016, 01:47 AM   #97
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When i drove the car during a test i didnt feel the car was underpowered to the extent people are saying. What i did feel was that it didnt feel as fast as its quarter mile time suggests. If youre used to peddal mashing v8s offcourse its gonna feel slow. Use the gear box, this car is designed for that purpose. To be worked, to be given a spanking. The art of driving this thing is precisely that. Old school manual drivers will know what im talking about as most affordable cars back in the day didnt have this sort of power.
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Old 08-11-2016, 02:23 AM   #98
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They've postponed/rescheduled testing in the past when they thought changes in weather would make a big enough difference to swing the results. Specifically to your question though, their methodology is to distribute the cars among 4 editors and run laps over the period of a few days. (I.e., no car would be scheduled to run solely in the morning or afternoon.) They then record fastest times for each car, then will periodically re-check using a different driver. There's some debate how consistent their driving is, but at least according to C/D there's never been more than a 0.5 second difference. That's a reasonably tight window over a 3 minute course.

More than weather or driving, I think the bigger factor on internal consistency would be the re-paving that happened at VIR. But again that skews in favor of the ND since it ran after the course was made faster.
Ah, I appreciate that, does lend it some credence.

My last comment is that new pavement =\= faster, quite a few tracks have gotten slower with fresh pavement, but I'm sure you know VIR better than I do on that front.

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