Aftermarket suspension making handling worse?

[RaceR]

Anyone else a little skeptical that aftermarket suspension might make the handling worse?
Subaru and Toyota have done so much testing, and had so many engineers on the car. Working, testing.. working more. testing more. fine tuning, testing...more fine tuning to make a perfect handling car that is not only sporty, fun to drive, but also have good comfort on the road.
Numerous reviews have confirmed the handling is brilliant, and the engineers have truly done a great job!

We even have two cars to choose between. Both excellent handling but with slight differences. That way we can buy the car that suits our driving style the best. I have a hard time thinking some "simple tuner shop" (no offence to anybody) or some famous well know brand can improve upon that. Of course they say so. They need to sell stuff to make a living. But if they "improve" on one thing, how are you sure they will not negatively affect up to several other aspects.

Ill give some examples here.
A person I know of with car X bought a set of new dampers and springs from manufacturer Y (well known brand). He is a very talented driver and highly respected in the car community. On several occasions he uses his car on the track. The new suspension should be good for daily driving but also for track.
Result: Money spent. No improvement in comfort. A little bit lower car. Laptimes stayed basically the same. Fun factor reduced by a little due to more understeer and worse balance.
I would not be impressed by that!
If you would be the owner of a new car spending 1000-3000USD to get say, a nice set of coilovers fitted and having the results described above, I would not be happy! Yeah, it looks better, but you have also paid a lot to do so, and you made the car less fun with worse handling.

My best friends current Mercedes was lowered by previous owner. After owning it, he found out it was way too low , and really not that comfortable. He never uses it on track. But have to slow down on stupid places due to low ground clearance. No need to say stock suspension would have been better than the "upgraded suspension"

Another friend of me had a highly modified WRX. It had a very expensive suspension (I do not remember brand, but was well know in the Subaru community) It was super hard and super crap for normal road driving. All passengers would easily complain/mention the lack of comfort.

I could go on with several examples... Yes, I know most guys will say, my new suspension is awesome. It corners like never before and have given me so much grip..Feels so much better in the corners.. bla bla bla.. Comments like that are usually from the guys who do not explore their grip very often and had no idea how the balance was before and after. They just know they spent X amount of money making the car lower and stiffer. That should make it a better performer in almost every possible way...
Funny thing is. I have noticed many people like that buy a comfortable car next, and does not lower it since they want comfort.

Im not saying that aftermarket suspension will not have the ability to improve lap times. Have higher quality. etc etc..
I am just doubting that as an overall package for a daily driver, they will not be as good as the stock suspension on the Toybaru.

I am just raising questions here.
If you are performance oriented and use the car as a daily driver 98+% of the time. Getting 5-10 track days/autox events a year. Would it really be a wise choice to buy a new suspension considering all the possible downsides?
Especially considering how good the stock suspension is for a combination of daily driving and track use.


Im hoping to learn a little about suspension here. And hear people not just praising the the aftermarket suspensions, but also questioning them.

I am drooling over many lowered cars here, and suspension pics.
I am just skeptical when it comes to aftermarket suspension. And I think you should be too. Not just look at how nice it looks when lowered, or how shiny the dampers and springs look. It is easy to get carried away with that stuff and forgetting how much time and effort a bunch of engineers and professional test drivers have used to perfect the stock suspension.

[Dimman]

Because compromise.

[WingsofWar]

Lengthy Post there RaceR, Let me start off by saying there is lots and lots of threads about this particular topic in this forum. And it does take a bit of ninja searching to sift through all the threads with wrongly attached keywords. You could Lurk the Suspension Sub-Forum of this site and learn quite a bit.

But it seems like you really want to learn and have legitimate concerns and questions. and I want to help you understand.

Anytime your exchange components with a wider range of adjustability, its considered an "upgrade". And yes there are suspension components out there where quality and durability are severely questioned especially at the entry level.

The biggest mistake that most people get into is thinking that just by replacing parts means its x% better than factory. At any given time you change your factory settings via parts, you need a TUNE to optimize the level of performance and comfort based on your each individual needs.

Now there is a compromise for every goal. On a spectrum..if you want faster lap times around a road course with tighter dampening characteristics, ultimately making the car stiffer to adhear to high speed road conditions..then you sacrifice comfort which is happier at softer suspension settings.

Most people on the road who have aftermarket suspension and use it for daily application have also wrongly tuned the vehicle. Making a car too low, dialing the wrong alignment adjustments, etc.. and it would not be just to fully blame the parts for bad ride characteristics but the owner of the vehicle is more to blame for either purposely doing so or neglecting to properly set up the car.

In terms of the BRZ, yes the factory setting are great. But they do not always fufill the needs and goals for each individual owner. And for myself the BRZ/FRS still has much improvement to go for it to be "perfect" for my application and goals.

[7thgear]

mods are for racing

if anyone doubts the ability of a stock car, show up to any auto-slalom or time attack event, and find that guy (or girl) thats bombing around the track in a bone stock car and doing reasonably well.

go out for a ride along with that person

then when you get your mind blown by the awesomeness you just experienced realize driving on the street is 10% of what you just witnessed, and ask yourself why in the world you would dump money into your car beyond the essentials (tires, brakes, maintenance components)

although i am a strong supporter of upgraded engine/tranny/diff mounts for all cars, but thats me.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

mods are for racing

if anyone doubts the ability of a stock car, show up to any auto-slalom or time attack event, and find that guy (or girl) thats bombing around the track in a bone stock car and doing reasonably well.

go out for a ride along with that person

then when you get your mind blown by the awesomeness you just experienced realize driving on the street is 10% of what you just witnessed, and ask yourself why in the world you would dump money into your car beyond the essentials (tires, brakes, maintenance components)

although i am a strong supporter of upgraded engine/tranny/diff mounts for all cars, but thats me.

All suspensions are a compromise, stock suspensions are set up to appease the vast majority of the target audience. If someone prefers a different set of compromises though, that's where the after market comes in.

When i got my Impreza I knew the suspension was too soft for my daily driving even before I signed the paperwork. Yes, even for my daily driving I wanted it stiffer, so I bought the SPT springs and sway bar and upgraded it. I did the same thing with the Neon before it, Mopar springs and the koni's they were made to work with. (Dodge sold the koni's but charged WAY too much) I have zero idea how much of a difference either of these setup made to possible lap times. I don't care and never did, I modified those cars for myself not a score sheet. I can tell you that my corner entry and exit speed from various turns on the way to and from work went up by a good margin.

7th, yes a stock suspension can often do much more then the owner of the car could ever hope to get out of it. But for some, track times don't matter at all. What matters is the fun they have driving their car. Please stop hammering on people for wanting to modify their suspension. Instead of trying to change everyone's mind, why not use your knowledge and experience to help people make informed decisions. There is a lot of crap out there trading on a name brand or a reputation.

In all honesty, after a short test drive, the FRS seemed to have off the compromises made exactly where I would like them to be. As of right now, I don't seem myself changing the suspension on this car outside of a good alignment and possibly some stickier tires. Time will tell.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Calum

Please stop hammering on people for wanting to modify their suspension.

no

because the vast majority want to modify their suspensions for the wrong reasons, such as marketing hype and peer pressure.

i'm done preaching the long form. if anyone is offended, i hope they are offended enough to go like "ohh shit, hold up, what's this guy saying, let me do a little more research", then my job is done.

[atledreier]

In my experience, it's hard to make good car better if you need to compromise. Especially with a good car like the 86, that is set up for the compromise the target audience would most likely have to make, that 10% of the driving is 90% of the priority. Meaning we can sacrifice a little comfort 90% of the time for the extra enjoyment for the 10%.

Having said that, you won't get to buy a stock Toybaru trackday car. If you want a trackday car you need to make a different compromise than the Toybaru engineers did, and that means swapping parts, possibly making it 'worse'.

[yuli8466]

Originally Posted by RaceR

Anyone else a little skeptical that after marked suspension might make the handling worse?
Subaru and Toyota have done so much testing, and had so many engineers on the car. Working, testing.. working more. testing more. fine tuning, testing...more fine tuning to make a perfect handling car that is not only sporty, fun to drive, but also have good comfort on the road.
Numerous reviews have confirmed the handling is brilliant, and the engineers have truly done a great job!

We even have two cars to choose between. Both excellent handling but with slight differences. That way we can buy the car that suits our driving style the best. I have a hard time thinking some "simple tuner shop" (no offence to anybody) or some famous well know brand can improve upon that. Of course they say so. They need to sell stuff to make a living. But if they "improve" on one thing, how are you sure they will not negatively affect up to several other aspects.

Ill give some examples here.
A person I know of with car X bought a set of new dampers and springs from manufacturer Y (well known brand). He is a very talented driver and highly respected in the car community. On several occasions he uses his car on the track. The new suspension should be good for daily driving but also for track.
Result: Money spent. No improvement in comfort. A little bit lower car. Laptimes stayed basically the same. Fun factor reduced by a little due to more understeer and worse balance.
I would not be impressed by that!
If you would be the owner of a new car spending 1000-3000USD to get say, a nice set of coilovers fitted and having the results described above, I would not be happy! Yeah, it looks better, but you have also paid a lot to do so, and you made the car less fun with worse handling.

My best friends current Mercedes was lowered by previous owner. After owning it, he found out it was way too low , and really not that comfortable. He never uses it on track. But have to slow down on stupid places due to low ground clearance. No need to say stock suspension would have been better than the "upgraded suspension"

Another friend of me had a highly modified WRX. It had a very expensive suspension (I do not remember brand, but was well know in the Subaru community) It was super hard and super crap for normal road driving. All passengers would easily complain/mention the lack of comfort.

I could go on with several examples... Yes, I know most guys will say, my new suspension is awesome. It corners like never before and have given me so much grip..Feels so much better in the corners.. bla bla bla.. Comments like that are usually from the guys who do not explore their grip very often and had no idea how the balance was before and after. They just know they spent X amount of money making the car lower and stiffer. That should make it a better performer in almost every possible way...
Funny thing is. I have noticed many people like that buy a comfortable car next, and does not lower it since they want comfort.

Im not saying that after marked suspension will not have the ability to improve lap times. Have higher quality. etc etc..
I am just doubting that as an overall package for a daily driver, they will not be as good as the stock suspension on the Toybaru.

I am just raising questions here.
If you are performance oriented and use the car as a daily driver 98+% of the time. Getting 5-10 track days/autox events a year. Would it really be a wise choice to buy a new suspension considering all the possible downsides?
Especially considering how good the stock suspension is for a combination of daily driving and track use.


Im hoping to learn a little about suspension here. And hear people not just praising the the after marked suspensions, but also questioning them.

I am drooling over many lowered cars here, and suspension pics.
I am just skeptical when it comes to after marked suspension. And I think you should be too. Not just look at how nice it looks when lowered, or how shiny the dampers and springs look. It is easy to get carried away with that stuff and forgetting how much time and effort a bunch of engineers and professional test drivers have used to perfect the stock suspension.

For BRZ/GT86, I do agree with you. Because the TOYOTA and SUBARU are always focus on the "pure handling delight" during the whole project developing. And as many previews of the global medias, they all considered that this is a very good car with drive-fun and drive-balance. No need to upgrade if you just drive it as a daily car.

No need to upgrade.

But someone just want a better visual effect: bigger wheel and lower suspension. They just simplely think: well, the tire is not good enough, the suspension is not low enough, the wheel is not big enough, the horsepower is not enough and etc. They just want it(BRZ) be a super car, or supercar-looklike. So they tuned and upgraded. Maybe the result is not good, as you said, the laptime is longer, the driving comfort is worse.


All i said is to BRZ/GT86, to many family-use car, such as Golf, it is necessary to upgrade because there is too much compromise. I think you may agree with that.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

no

because the vast majority want to modify their suspensions for the wrong reasons, such as marketing hype and peer pressure.

i'm done preaching the long form. if anyone is offended, i hope they are offended enough to go like "ohh shit, hold up, what's this guy saying, let me do a little more research", then my job is done.

I hope you enjoy frustration, because that's all your approach is going bring you.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Calum

I hope you enjoy frustration, because that's all your approach is going bring you.

Yes, the frustration...

Sometimes I wish people would be a wee bit more honest with their mods. Most is just fashion.

Then all those people could post about their sooper-dooper coilovers and stanced wheels in the Cosmetic part of the forum. Unfortunately they feel compelled to come up with out of their ass 'technical' reasons about 'performance gains', then fall back to the haters-gonna-hate defence when criticized on technical and performance grounds. Just post your wrong sized stretched tires on rims that stick out too much and slammed over cambered bumpstop-riding shitty chinese coilover 'time attack' cars over in Cosmetic so I don't feel compelled to smash my head through a wall reading your explanations on how your car is now 'faster'.

(Not directed at you specifically, Callum. But in a perfect world the two types of modifiers would co exist peacefully. But separate.)

[armythug]

This is a good topic to discuss. I really don't know a lot about suspension but I do know what I like. I have been looking at suspension upgrades from Cusco, Tein, KW, and others and I'm wondering if my decision to upgrade in the future will cause more problems. I like Wings post. I think that I will just stay stock for a good while and actually learn more about what Im getting from Toyota(stock). And then when I have a better understanding about various upgrades, I'll be better informed to make a more accurate purchase. One coilover set that sticks out is TRD. Being that I don't know a lot about suspensions, I am assuming that the TRD coilovers would be an upgrade because they are related to Toyota. But I could be totally wrong.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by armythug

This is a good topic to discuss. I really don't know a lot about suspension but I do know what I like. I have been looking at suspension upgrades from Cusco, Tein, KW, and others and I'm wondering if my decision to upgrade in the future will cause more problems. I like Wings post. I think that I will just stay stock for a good while and actually learn more about what Im getting from Toyota(stock). And then when I have a better understanding about various upgrades, I'll be better informed to make a more accurate purchase. One coilover set that sticks out is TRD. Being that I don't know a lot about suspensions, I am assuming that the TRD coilovers would be an upgrade because they are related to Toyota. But I could be totally wrong.

We've got some really helpful guys here when it comes to suspension. Particularly @Racecomp Engineering and @old greg

They seem pretty tolerant and patiently explain when I pester them with questions.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Yes, the frustration...

Sometimes I wish people would be a wee bit more honest with their mods. Most is just fashion.

Then all those people could post about their sooper-dooper coilovers and stanced wheels in the Cosmetic part of the forum. Unfortunately they feel compelled to come up with out of their ass 'technical' reasons about 'performance gains', then fall back to the haters-gonna-hate defence when criticized on technical and performance grounds. Just post your wrong sized stretched tires on rims that stick out too much and slammed over cambered bumpstop-riding shitty chinese coilover 'time attack' cars over in Cosmetic so I don't feel compelled to smash my head through a wall reading your explanations on how your car is now 'faster'.

(Not directed at you specifically, Calum. But in a perfect world the two types of modifiers would co exist peacefully. But separate.)

Wait, did you think I was defending the stance and stretch is sporty crowed? Im trying to say two things, first belittling someone isn't going to cause them to do research. It's going to make them defensive and make them do anything to prove themself, even if it's wrong. Secondly, there is room for those that aren't worried about lap times but still ENJOY modifying their cars. Some mod for the joy of the time card, some mod for the joy of driving, and some mod for the joy of fashion.

Theres nothing wrong with any of those goals as long as the person is true to themselves and recognizes what their true goal is. If they do understand that then what's wrong with giving advice centered around their goals instead of the advisors goals?

[nix]

You lot with your monocles and your fancy pipe cleaners and your droning on about how Toyobaru achieved perfection, and that the COG is just fine how it is despite being raised some 2 inches for production run. And that Toyota released their own strut, sway and damper/spring upgrades on the first day of sale of the car, and that etc etc.