GT86 vs Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.6 R

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by totopo

Anyway, I keep digressing from my main point, which is, the 86 crowd on this forum mostly sounds like the annoying miata guys, but younger. Sure it is fun and svelte and great for learning momentum driving and a ton of fun on and off the track, but somedays people like too go fast as well, so why do you have to hate on them?

Go to any forum, they are all the same. The hate comes because you are on an 86 forum and trolls from other sites like to stir things up. People will defend what they have over the competition...it's not exactly earth-shattering information

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

...it's not exactly earth-shattering information

Now we know too that the chassis isn't completely terrible or worthless. Lol.

[Cliu91]

Originally Posted by blackhawkdown

1. Free country to post anywhere.

2. FWD or RWD, both handle well in their respective class.

3. Lets see, I have owned a civic, 2 integras, 1 accord. Driven a BRZ. So yes, I have.

4. Your such a fanboy. As much as I like the twins, I respect other cars for what they are and its capabilities. Yet, your post is full of fanboy praises.

Did you really just post "free country to post anywhere?" No one is saying you're not allowed to post, it just isn't fitting in this thread. I'm sure somewhere there is a "Civic vs. 86" thread, this is the GENESIS vs. 86 thread.

I don't get it, so you're admitting that they both drive differently? How are you even comparing them? FWD family sports car vs RWD sports coupe?

And please, this is where I know you basically spew shit out of your mouth when you say "my post is full of fanboy praises".

Not once in this thread have I praised the 86 platform. But as you said, this is a "free country", and I've only voiced my opinion on how I dislike the Genesis platform.

You really are true to your avatar eh? Slow thinking, simple minded.

[Twin4Life]

Originally Posted by Cliu91

1) This is FRS/BRZ vs. Genesis Coupe, even mentioning the Civic in this thread is a moot point cause it doesn't even belong here
2) "Handles well in their respective drive layout"... drive layout being different?
3) You're comparing two cars based on stats alone, have you sat in both the Civic and FRS? I doubt it.

Wait, I forgot which car had the faster lap? Was it the mighty 86 or front wheel drive econo box?

[ame]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oBPq7D28xGg[/ame]

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by Twin4Life

Wait, I forgot which car had the faster lap? Was it the mighty 86 or front wheel drive econo box?

It was the more expensive one with the high performance tires and upgraded sports suspension by one-tenth of a second (certainly within margin of driver error).

[Sypher]

Originally Posted by Twin4Life

Wait, I forgot which car had the faster lap? Was it the mighty 86 or front wheel drive econo box?

lol at this ^^^^

the civic had upgraded sport suspension and summer tires.

it was in fact faster by a mere .1 of a second.

that video only reinforces the fact that the handling of the twin is better even with shit 500 tread wear tires.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Twin4Life

Nice. I'll leave this here. Lol

Originally Posted by Twin4Life

Wait, I forgot which car had the faster lap? Was it the mighty 86 or front wheel drive econo box?

Not sure why you're so obsessed with that comparison that you feel compelled to post it numerous times, but here are some Civic SI vs. Twin laptimes:

Modified FWD/RWD Challenge
1:29.0 Honda Civic SI
1:26.9 Scion FR-S

http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-13...t-results.html

C&D Lightning Lap at VIR
3:24.1 Civic SI
3:18.6 BRZ

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...o-2013-page-10

Motor Trend Laguna Lap
1:54.9 Civic SI
1:51.3 BRZ

http://www.motortrend.com/features/laguna_lap/

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by totopo

Well with better tires, you lose a little on the subjective side, especially on the road. With equal tires, still the 86 isnt that stand out special. Maybe im wrong, time will tell, but it also somewhat hard to quantify performance in a meaningful way other than times, and the effect of the engine is hard to tease out. Certainly if you look at a stock frs, given equal tires it dosent really perform great, be it autox or road courses,or skidpad. It doesnt perform terribly, and is pretty good for its price in some metrics, but it also isnt stand out special.

When you start talking about "chassis potential" well theres so many factors that people can argue until their face turns blue and never come up with an agreement, but thats the fun part of being an automotive enthusiast, right?

Why don't you point to the evidence you have that shows the BRZ/FR-S is slower than it should be given its horsepower and with tires equalized? So far I haven't seen you post any data, and the testing out there seems to contradict you.

At Laguna Seca (another data point), these cars are running times nearly on par with cars with 40 more hp and stickier tires (and double-wishbone front suspension).

[totopo]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Why don't you point to the evidence you have that shows the BRZ/FR-S is slower than it should be given its horsepower and with tires equalized? So far I haven't seen you post any data, and the testing out there seems to contradict you.

At Laguna Seca (another data point), these cars are running times nearly on par with cars with 40 more hp and stickier tires (and double-wishbone front suspension).

because there's precious few tests with the 2 most important points, similar driver and similar tire. I am mostly going by that equal tired fr-s aren't really competitive yet in any group and my own prejudice in that I don't think that the basic setup is good for track times. I don't hold too strongly to that belief yet, and am waiting to be proved wrong, especially curious about the motoiq fr-s. that car looks like it is being built well, but based on the overall setup, I am kind of doubtful it can really be competitive in any race group, other than maybe very niche groups where all the similar hp and hp/weight ratio cars have been moved.

Again, I digress. I didn't try to post data or times because I think I end up being more reactionary and critical than I mean to come across. I think the 86 is an interesting platform, and has potential, and am pleasantly waiting for what people can do with it. My biggest point is that I don't think it's in any sense proved yet that it is a great platform that is clearly superior to all other <$70k cars like everyone on this forum seems to make it out to be. I mean, if it's so superior, bring it out there and prove it.

Again, I also resisted posting on this thread because the genesis 3.8 isn't the paragon of performance either.

Bringing it back to the topic of the post, why has this reached 19 pages? doesn't everyone agrees on the basics. I guess the biggest point of contention is does the genesis 3.8 road hold better on a track than an fr-s? I think this question is actually more complicated than people are making it out to be and kind of a moot point, especially as it pertains to track times. What if the fr-s hold better through a corner by maximal g and the momentum driving largest radius turn where the genesis can beat it by driving the shorter more diamond trailbraking-to-apex line? Which car handles better? It's kind of a worthless distinction to make.

I guess the more engineering side of me thinks these comparisons are mostly meaningless without a specific measurable goal in mind.

edit: i didn't see your previous post. editing while I look at it. Or I may be lazy and never edit it again.

[blackhawkdown]

Originally Posted by totopo

I think the 86 is an interesting platform, and has potential, and am pleasantly waiting for what people can do with it. My biggest point is that I don't think it's in any sense proved yet that it is a great platform that is clearly superior to all other <$70k cars like everyone on this forum seems to make it out to be.

This is the point that I was trying to make. People make this car out like it's so superior to other cars and cry fowl and blasphemy when comparing it to other cars that are similar. Many of the FRS/BRZ vs ???? has so many fan boys posting on how the end all twins are so superior to everything else. If you are a real car enthusiasts, why not appreciate and give the other car respect for what it is. On paper, yes, the Genesis is faster. In real life everyday driver, yes, it is probably more comfortable (subjective of course) or vice versa. These v.s. threads are ridiculous as you can see it has over 19 pages.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Not sure why you're so obsessed with that comparison that you feel compelled to post it numerous times, but here are some Civic SI vs. Twin laptimes:

Modified FWD/RWD Challenge
1:29.0 Honda Civic SI
1:26.9 Scion FR-S

http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-13...t-results.html

C&D Lightning Lap at VIR
3:24.1 Civic SI
3:18.6 BRZ

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...o-2013-page-10

Motor Trend Laguna Lap
1:54.9 Civic SI
1:51.3 BRZ

http://www.motortrend.com/features/laguna_lap/

again, not to try to sound overly contentious, but doesn't the first article show why people compare the 2 cars?

The first one, hard to interpret because amateur drivers. I think it is actually harder to get a great fwd time for an amateur driver compared to pro. I think it's easier to get a decent fwd time, but harder to get a great one.

the second one, amateur driver, are they stock tires? So if you say the brz is more of a sports car than the civic si based on the track times, is the genesis 3.8 more of a track car than a brz?

third one, you can't compare randy pobst's track times with random chumps. the brz is the slowest car pobst has logged a track time at laguna. If you look at fastest laps, pobst gets like 5 seconds faster laps than car magazine reviewers. Same with the other pro drivers. I think the best thing fastest-laps is for is to show you how driver skill and tires are the largest factor in track times. Until you are at that level, it's kind of hard to look at track times. Like I always wonder what would happen if pobst or tsuchiya or some other pro gt level driver showed up to spec miata or nasa TT. I wonder how much they would just destroy everyone. well i guess pobst is like billion time scca champion. must suck to compete against him.

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by totopo

...

For those that don't believe in tires making a difference on the 86. Try nearly -2.5 secs on a 1:30 track.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_IWa_qlt3g"]2013 Scion FR-S - YouTube[/ame]


Your idol and hero Randy Pobst said the 86 should have been drivers car of the year.

Randy Pobst put the BRZ just over second of the V6 Mustang with more than 100+ more hp and torques, 2 more cylinders and better tires around Streets of Willow (which actually likes power and torque down that uphill straight despite being a tight track overall). Supposedly they were able to wrangle the FRS around just a hair bit faster later on.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD3hgleEOXA"]Subaru BRZ vs Ford Mustang! - Head 2 Head Episode 7 - YouTube[/ame]


Engineering side of you? You have to be kidding that you can't look at track times, entry and exit speeds (check the car mags), a CoG lower than a Porsche Cayman, sub 2800lb weight, high tensile steel cabin/chassis, aerodynamic performance, steering, seating, driver's position and ergonomics and possibly consider the Genesis Coupe even remotely in the ballpark of a drivers car.

Have you even driven or sat in an 86? Doesn't seem like it because Chris Harris seems to prefer a stock 86 over a stock 370z like you have.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUhLXvxlQR4"]Toyota GT86 / Scion FR-S v Nissan 370Z v Used Porsche Cayman S - /CHRIS HARRIS ON CARS - YouTube[/ame]




stock versus the Genesis Coupe R-spec


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI2snMjBqRE"]2013 Scion FR-S vs. 2013 Hyundai Genesis Coupe Comparison - YouTube[/ame]




Tons of videos and graphs out there on the 86's entry and exit speeds on top of what we've linked and all the stuff in this forum. But by all means, let the 'engineering side of you' ignore all the logic, and evidence.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dbXk82Uih8"]Evasive FR-S Testing at Buttonwillow CW13 12-15-13 1:49.6 - YouTube[/ame]


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1Tue_zyMQI"]86 TRD Griffon Concept 5th test - YouTube[/ame]




So what's a naturally aspirated 370Z or Genesis Coupe do around Tsukuba these days? How about a FI 370Z around Buttonwillow? Thought so. Hell, let's bring the Civic into this, why not?!

You've asked for evidence and ignored it when in front of your face. You still have none to offer yourself except spouting hot air. It seems you haven't looked around the forum or other sources for any data or information to figure this stuff out yourself. Probably because you're just a troll rather than an 'engineer'. Let me guess, software engineer.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by totopo

because there's precious few tests with the 2 most important points, similar driver and similar tire. I am mostly going by that equal tired fr-s aren't really competitive yet in any group and my own prejudice in that I don't think that the basic setup is good for track times. I don't hold too strongly to that belief yet, and am waiting to be proved wrong, especially curious about the motoiq fr-s. that car looks like it is being built well, but based on the overall setup, I am kind of doubtful it can really be competitive in any race group, other than maybe very niche groups where all the similar hp and hp/weight ratio cars have been moved.

That's too broad a statement to make IMO, especially given the short length of time the car has been out. Certainly in NASA TTD, the FR-S is considered one of the cars to have at the moment, mostly due to its ability to run E85 within the rules. It's set numerous class records at various tracks, and quite easily (with points left to spare).

Speaking of similar hp/weight ratio cars, the 370z has a much higher hp/weight ratio, but both are classed in the same class (CS) for autocross. I'd say the 370z has the advantage at the moment, but not nearly as much as its hp/weight ratio would lead you to believe (9.8 lbs/hp vs. 13.8 lbs/hp).

Originally Posted by totopo

Again, I digress. I didn't try to post data or times because I think I end up being more reactionary and critical than I mean to come across.

Fair to say you don't have any data yet?

I've followed this car since its release and haven't seen anything that would indicate it's objectively slower than its hp/weight ratio would indicate. In fact, most of the data would indicate the car is spot on, if not slightly faster, in fact.

Originally Posted by totopo

I think the 86 is an interesting platform, and has potential, and am pleasantly waiting for what people can do with it. My biggest point is that I don't think it's in any sense proved yet that it is a great platform that is clearly superior to all other <$70k cars like everyone on this forum seems to make it out to be. I mean, if it's so superior, bring it out there and prove it.

I would agree with this. From a purely numbers/objectively-based standpoint, I don't think chassis is superior to everything under $70k. But if you're talking about a combination of the following (to quote you):

1) subjective: feel, fun, controllability, responsiveness
2) objective: measured performance.

The chassis definitely been compared quite favorably to other coupes under $70k. There is plenty of evidence of this out there for this.

And actually Pobst, who you seem to respect, loves this car on the track. I think he had it as high as 2nd in MT's best driver's car comparison against some very expensive exotics/supercars.

[Twin4Life]

Willow Springs:
33. Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 1:27.30 '13 659 / 1750 EdMunds InsideLine
34. Subaru WRX 1:27.33 '14 272 / 0 Randy Pobst
35. Subaru WRX Special Edition 1:27.40 '13 269 / 1452 Randy Pobst
36. BMW M3 1:27.67 '07 420 / 1580
37. Chrysler 300 SRT-8 Mk II 1:27.74 '11 477 / 1994 Randy Probst
38. Ford Mustang GT 5.0 1:27.76 '11 418 / 1648
39. Nissan Z34 370Z 1:27.79 '12 337 / 1524 Martin Choi

3.8 Gen Coupe-

Willow Springs - Streets of Willow 1:28.71


61. Ford Mustang V6 1:30.90 '11 309 / 1571
62. Mini Cooper S 1:30.93 '14 192 / 0
63. Scion FR-S 1:31.15 '13 197 / 0 Randy Pobst
64. Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X SE 1:31.40 '11 295 / 1519 Roger Yasukawa
65. VW Golf GTI Mk. VI 1:31.47 '09 211 / 1318 Randy Pobst

Frankly, those are awesome times for the FR-S, the Z, and the Gen Coupe. Other cars in the times are BIG HP compared to the lot.