Contacted "Scion Customer Experience" regarding DI Seal Issue

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Porsche

So, we have information that suggests that a tune may not help, or maybe a tune with only certain parameters?

But E85?

That's alcohol, right? I don't know anything about this stuff.

Would not alcohol act as a cooling agent?

If so, that may be why Robispec has not melted down. Again, I want to stress that I'm merely speculating.

My "theory," such as it is, is that overheating melts the DI seals, which leads to even more overheating until the whole system melts down. If this is true, and if E85 is an effective cooling agent, keeping combustion chamber temperatures below the critical seal melt-down temperature, then maybe this accounts for Robispec's durability.

You're saying, I believe, that all save for one tracked BRZ/FRS has suffered seal failure. That one is Robispec.

What are your thoughts?

Robi's car has so much done that it's impossible to say WHY. He's not on his original engine either, however.

[hmong337]

I'm going to get an openflash tablet for this very reason! This should prevent seals from burning up... hopefully

[chaoskaze]

I think u expect too much, but i dont blame u since u had a honda. Their engine is just soild to the point no one can beat.

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[AyJay]

Originally Posted by hmong337

I'm going to get an openflash tablet for this very reason! This should prevent seals from burning up... hopefully

I had purchased an OFT for this very reason before I learned that people with tunes are still experiencing the problem. I've already re-sold the OFT.

[hmong337]

Originally Posted by AyJay

I had purchased an OFT for this very reason before I learned that people with tunes are still experiencing the problem. I've already re-sold the OFT.

So push the car off a cliff...?

[AyJay]

Originally Posted by chaoskaze

I think u expect too much, but i dont blame u since u had a honda. Their engine is just soild to the point no one can beat.

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I talked to someone from SoCal at Laguna Seca last weekend that experienced the problem after only his 3rd track day. Fuggsake, I've seen 20yo LeMons cars log more track time than that w/o an issue. Is that really expecting too much for a manufacturer to stand behind a product nowadays?

What low expectations we have as consumers these days... no wonder manufacturers don't feel like they have to fix mistakes. They just have to wave the Jedi mind trick hand like "no, you don't want your monies worth".

[autobrz]

Can the fix be to remove the direct injector and plug it with something that can't melt, like how the spark plug washers don't. Then tune the car to 100% port injection.

[hmong337]

Originally Posted by autobrz

Can the fix be to remove the direct injector and plug it with something that can't melt, like how the spark plug washers don't. Then tune the car to 100% port injection.

I can't see that happening with a 12.5:1 CR.

[autobrz]

I think robispec said with his cooling system, his car ran with 195 water temp and 210 oil temp on the track very consistently. I wonder if it's good prevention to have a warning system for when oil temps get too high or if too many knock events are registered to know when to let the car cool down...

[FT_Monk]

Sound like the DI seals are craps. What do you expect when they use plastics to seal combustion chambers! Down the road, it probably will take a BRZ or FRS to burst into flames and injures the owner for Toyota and Subaru to take notice. This is one of the reason that I am not buying a BRZ or FRS.
Hopefully the 2015 WRX will have better seals being it is a turbo car.

[suaveflooder]

Originally Posted by imom

Out of curiosity ... how much does it cost to get upgraded injectors? The last bulletproof car I had was actually a 96 Tacoma. I haven't heard of a reliable sports car from any manufacturers... all forums I've been on; there are always some cars going kaboom. The mini cooper that I never owned or lease... The Z4Ms... If it's BMW and either other German cars.. the High pressure fuel pumps have caused a lot of problems for the turbo engines. S54 engines with VANOS issues.

I did a lot of reading and researching various cars... BRZ wasn't my first choice in cars, but it was the sensible car for now. New corvette is pretty pricey...all German car parts is not worth it given the amount of electronics.

Ideally cars made by Japan means bulletproof, but given these days economics and a car pushing 100 HP per liter, MPG requirements to meet with emissions, not sure if you one can be realistic about HPDE endorsed cars,

AyJay, I'm not sure if any manufacturer will step up publicly saying they will support HPDE "off road use" for consumers...they are a business...whether it be subaru, scion, toyota, or any other company and pay up out of their dime what ever the marketing dept says about a car. Given the years of going to dealers and see what they do to German cars and these days so many dealer stories of not changing the oil and crap...I rather fix my own car or take it to someone I can see them do it in front of my eyes.

I'm not slamming you or disputing what you are saying...it would be nice but not realistic other than venting to a forum members that the manufacturer will change their mind...the only way they change is with your wallet... if you buy they will continue...

To me, if the cricket fuel pump and injector seals are easily or shall I say less than $2K to fix permanently that's not bad if that meant the car is bulletproof. You track your car, you have tire budget, and other track expenses...the real question is this the only weakness of the design. If it is...save up and replace it yourself or trusted person to do the work.

If you compare to a S2000 (also a gutless car on the low end) had impressive HP numbers, but it's MPG was 18city and 25highway... car manufacturers these days have to design cars to high MPG requirements so there's alot of concessions being made... prove me wrong and tell if there are any other car that is price cheap enough and can handle well and I'll join you in taking a 10K loss and getting that car instead.

BRZ for me is a hold over...I hope with some minor issues addressed that it'll be a longer hold over. If you jump to any other new car manufacturer, I would be really surprise if you didn't get the same response or have similar reliability issues or worse....especially for a first year/model car. If I was wrong, you would have already bought that car.

So the real question is how much does it cost and how reliable will the aftermarket injector/seals and such be to make the car bulletproof?

Last thing is that if you want to track, either have the funs for really nice car or get a 818 and get bulletproof motor and have fun driving...I'm not defending any manufacturers...just being realistic of what the cars being made now.

Basically my thoughts as well.

Personally, I think "the aftermarket" is going to come up with "the fix" and not toyota or subaru. It took 10 years for the aftermarket to come up with a fix for the VANOS system of the E46 and you are talking about a community that has some serious $$$ to dump into finding a solution.

I'm going to hold onto my car as it is a TON of fun. I would LOVE to track the car eventually, but that being said, and that being the ultimate goal, I'm going to wait until I can either (a) put a different, more reliable motor in, or (b) the community finds a fix to the crappy seals.

This subject has been beaten to death. Toyota won't do anything about it because the failure rate is so small (as someone pointed out, not a lot of OT guys here). Time to sit bad and start writing the aftermarket to come up with a solution. There will probably a better response from them. Just my opinion.

[red_comet]

I use my frs as a daily driver (though not really daily, I live where I work). Any engine failures occur to any dd guys?

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by vteclol

U DRIVE LIKE RACE CAR, IT BREAK LIKE RACE CAR!

Fixed that for you. Every report of a failure that I have seen reported has been on a tracked car. CSG Mike says there are a few instances of a failure on cars that have seen no track time. Who knows how they were driven on the street?

There are people drag racing and autoxing the car without issue so it seems it is the sustained abuse of tracking the car that is causing the failures.

We have an FR-S in the family that is used as a DD and a ridge runner. I do not worry about the issue at all.

[ZionsWrath]

Originally Posted by red_comet

I use my frs as a daily driver (though not really daily, I live where I work). Any engine failures occur to any dd guys?

No issues yet with my BRZ. I have 22k and redline it daily. No track time at all yet.

I drive hard but I don't street race. No clutch drops, no hard driving until its warm, and again no runs from a dig.