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Old 07-16-2019, 09:24 PM   #15
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It sucks when you can't keep someone else's intellectual property. Rather than embrace the future of the employee who leaves you, I suppose it's easier just to shit on them from afar for leaving.
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Old 07-17-2019, 05:18 AM   #16
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There is no way for uninvolved bystanders to tell who did what to whom, it will be just words/truths from opposite sides.
Still, just as this situation is already called here as "internet shit show", result seems that reputation from all involved sides will take a hit, no matter who was more or less right. Imho it should have been handled better from all sides and never taken out public.
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Old 07-17-2019, 06:51 AM   #17
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Bill is now claiming that Zach is tuning for me, using “stolen” ROMs....and any Ecutek Dealer would know this is impossible.
It is definitely very possible to be done. So long as you take the dongle coding out of the file then any dongle can open and modify. It would have needed to be done while Zach had access to the original dongle to do this this and I'm not suggesting that it has happened, but it's far from impossible.
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It sucks when you can't keep someone else's intellectual property.
Interesting thought - maps are Bill's base maps, but Zach has spent countless hours refining and improving so that there are a large number of changes. Who's IP is that tune? You could say that reasonably they have both benefited from the other.
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Old 07-17-2019, 11:30 AM   #18
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It is definitely very possible to be done. So long as you take the dongle coding out of the file then any dongle can open and modify. It would have needed to be done while Zach had access to the original dongle to do this this and I'm not suggesting that it has happened, but it's far from impossible.

Interesting thought - maps are Bill's base maps, but Zach has spent countless hours refining and improving so that there are a large number of changes. Who's IP is that tune? You could say that reasonably they have both benefited from the other.
What if the base maps were done from scratch after departing DT? Sure, one party may say it takes "years" or "months" but all it takes is dedication, time, and resources.
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:27 PM   #19
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Interesting thought - maps are Bill's base maps, but Zach has spent countless hours refining and improving so that there are a large number of changes. Who's IP is that tune? You could say that reasonably they have both benefited from the other.
Exactly, that is where it's really tough for both parties. Much like a prenuptial agreement, I think more and more of these things needs to be established during the hiring process, as little as someone wants to consider the end of their career / job as they're just starting it.
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Old 07-17-2019, 02:07 PM   #20
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Being an employee is not being a slave. The good news for me is that I'm way better at the job than any of my employees are. Don't tell nobody. So for an employee to leave would mean them taking a lot of business, possibly, but they'd struggle to keep them and the quality wouldn't be the same without my oversight or making all the lessons. They could steal all my work and use it, but then I'd have a court case. So I'm more worried about people moving for live reasons than actual job/competition reasons. I also take really good care of my employees. They work hard, but I pay them at least normal wages and often more. Plus they get a ton of training from me. It's nice for them to enjoy growing as a teacher. It sounds like, maybe, Delicious could have cultivated their employee a bit more.
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Old 07-17-2019, 03:08 PM   #21
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It is definitely very possible to be done. So long as you take the dongle coding out of the file then any dongle can open and modify. It would have needed to be done while Zach had access to the original dongle to do this this and I'm not suggesting that it has happened, but it's far from impossible.

Interesting thought - maps are Bill's base maps, but Zach has spent countless hours refining and improving so that there are a large number of changes. Who's IP is that tune? You could say that reasonably they have both benefited from the other.
Anyone who looks at a log of a CSG tune by Zach and a Delicious tune would see that they are very obviously not the same base map. Case closed.

Easy way to identify in logs: Custom Map A-P logs. Additionally, fueling, ignition, cam timing, etc.

Quite frankly, if work was plagiarized, it would be open and closed in court so fast (because it's THAT EASY to prove or disprove), that a lawsuit would have happened instantly, rather than a social media shitstorm.
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Old 07-17-2019, 03:20 PM   #22
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Can a tune be copyrighted? That seems odd to me.
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Old 07-17-2019, 03:34 PM   #23
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Can a tune be copyrighted? That seems odd to me.
Tunes would generally fall under IP/Trade Secret.
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Old 07-17-2019, 06:11 PM   #24
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Tunes would generally fall under IP/Trade Secret.

Any court case would be very interesting as whatever tune system you use or whatever tune you use on a brz\86 with the stock ecu in place is 99% toypta\subaru propriety code tuning is just altering some of the thousands of tables in ecu program, racerom adds some extra functions but its still 99% original code, that Isuspect that no one has permission from toyota\subaru to modify or effectly resell thier ecu code.


Its like buying a copy of Windows operaring system, altering a small portion of it without permission then reselling that for a profit.



Car manufacturers likey dont care too much as it does impact their profits and likely probably increases sales in some cases. However once two guys got to court arguing about one stole my likely illegal mods to base software that neither had permission to alter use or resell be very interesting.

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Old 07-17-2019, 07:08 PM   #25
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Any court case would be very interesting as whatever tune system you use or whatever tune you use on a brz\86 with the stock ecu in place is 99% toypta\subaru propriety code tuning is just altering some of the thousands of tables in ecu program, racerom adds some extra functions but its still 99% original code, that Isuspect that no one has permission from toyota\subaru to modify or effectly resell thier ecu code.


Its like buying a copy of Windows operaring system, altering a small portion of it without permission then reselling that for a profit.



Car manufacturers likey dont care too much as it does impact their profits and likely probably increases sales in some cases. However once two guys got to court arguing about one stole my likely illegal mods to base software that neither had permission to alter use or resell be very interesting.
Car manufacturers care very much. The reason we have it so good is Subaru elects to allow anyone to modify their code, they basically unlock it for free for anyone that wants to. Good luck trying to read a Toyota ECU. Even with Techstream the actual ECU is locked down a billion ways.

And that was actually part of one of the latest pushes by automakers in certain states. They were trying to get lawmakers to say all their code is proprietary, and no one not duly appointed by the manufacturers, aka no non dealerships, is ever allowed to connect any device to read the code in any way.
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Old 07-17-2019, 07:29 PM   #26
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Car manufacturers care very much. The reason we have it so good is Subaru elects to allow anyone to modify their code, they basically unlock it for free for anyone that wants to. Good luck trying to read a Toyota ECU. Even with Techstream the actual ECU is locked down a billion ways.

And that was actually part of one of the latest pushes by automakers in certain states. They were trying to get lawmakers to say all their code is proprietary, and no one not duly appointed by the manufacturers, aka no non dealerships, is ever allowed to connect any device to read the code in any way.

Subaru dont allow access, even the stock ecu is protected by seed\key access sequence, it had to be reverse engineered get access to stock ecu contents . Ecutek and brzedit just add theor own lock sequence on top of the standard ecu seed key sequence.


Their are tune systems that access toyota vw and lots of other cars, afaik all manufacturers have some kind of lock sequence you cannot just read it out without cracking some form of key sequence. Im sure subaru could make it more difficult if they wanted though as could all manufacturers.




https://www.alientech-tools.com/en/vehicles-list/


Most aftermarket tunes dont comply fully with emmissions in most countries but thats another issue



They also dont tell anyone about how the ecu works or tavle locarions or functions its all reverse engineered from the ecu code.

to
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Old 07-18-2019, 02:39 AM   #27
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So what does this mean for customers who purchased the flexfuel kit and ecutek bundle from CSG and got tuned by DT? If a change needed to be made to the tune, say I change my injectors or add UEL headers, do I contact DT or CSG?
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Old 07-18-2019, 03:00 AM   #28
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So what does this mean for customers who purchased the flexfuel kit and ecutek bundle from CSG and got tuned by DT? If a change needed to be made to the tune, say I change my injectors or add UEL headers, do I contact DT or CSG?
If you'd like to get tuned by Bill, you contact DT. If you'd like to be tuned by Zach, you contact CSG.

I believe the e-tunes from Feb 2019 on have all been done by Bill!
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