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Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


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Old 05-10-2016, 01:21 PM   #15
MannyO
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Thanks Chase @GrimmSpeed for the informative post and to everyone else with constructive answers
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Old 05-10-2016, 08:46 PM   #16
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Bravo bravo! Awesome reply chase! That was exactly the input i was looking for in a boiled down version!!! And because u gave an explanation with dyno chart on the actual benefits versus the drop-in i have decided to purchase the GS. Thanks so much.
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Old 05-10-2016, 09:10 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed View Post
This thread is pretty ugly, BUT I'm always down for some intake talk:

Lately when I cruise through these forums I read in pretty much every intake thread that you should just buy a drop in filter and call it a day, and that intakes are worthless. It's very short-sighted unfortunately.

During development we posted literally everything, including a study on the stock intake system, and pressure differentials across all parts of it. Lots of really really cool info, which showed us where we could make improvements. We also posted a 48 page thread, where we showed off tons and tons of dyno charts from our "141 pull, 61 miles at WOT, 23 intake configurations in a single day," dyno day (http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50492). It's a pretty long read, but there is all kinds of relevant info in there including stock runs, drop in filter, silicone elbow, modified snorkel, a few different brand intakes, prototypes, etc.

Now at some point people started to say, hey the horsepower per dollar of an intake isn't that great compared to a drop in filter. And that's true if you look only at the peak HP numbers. Even if you're looking at total power under the curve, it's not worth it to some people, and that's just fine. But lately the automatic response to any intake question on this forum is: Don't buy an intake, just get a drop in filter, it's way cheaper and almost as good!

This is why it's not almost as good:



What you're looking at here as far as runs go (in order) is: 1. Stock 2. Drop In Filter 3. Drop in Filter and Silicone Elbow 4. GrimmSpeed Prototype intake.

Before anyone comments on how low the horsepower numbers are, remember that this is a Dyno Dynamics dyno, which reads around 75%-80% of what a Dynojet reads. This applies to the deltas as well.

So this is still when we were using our prototype intake and airbox, which was not as refined as the production version. You'll see it's making the same peak horsepower as the drop in filter and silicone elbow, but it makes more power literally everywhere, and sooner too. Granted its only a few horsepower here and a few ftlbs of torque there...

But it's not a fair comparison: Look how LEAN the drop in filter runs are. 14:1? That's wildly unacceptable at WOT. While our intake (untuned) is making more power, and at a safe, stock air to fuel ratio. Over time once the ECU starts pulling timing due to knock, that drop in filter isn't going to be making the same power.

So you'd want to get it tuned. And all of the sudden that drop in filter is a lot more expensive... Those drop in filter dyno comparisons are pretty cool and very consistent, but they also do not show the AFRs.

Also, just to reiterate once we took the production version (not the prototype) to a dynojet it made 10whp, which is double what a drop in filter makes. This is also where we learned that we were not putting the air filter on the correct distance on the intake tube, and were hampering our own power production. Once we figured that out, we immediately made the power we did:



So at the end of the day, yes our intake has proven itself. And it is a great candidate for a lot of people. Do you want something that looks better under the hood, requires absolutely no tune (even has a MAF-scaled OFT tune available if you want to make even more power), and sounds better? Then our intake is a great choice. However, if you want to just make some power, don't care about running leaner at WOT, like the look of the stock intake, and don't want to spend as much money, then a drop in filter is what you're probably looking for.

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That's rearly weird that just a drop in filter could cause the engine to run lean especially 14:1 lean. and don't understand why that would happen as your not altering the position or the size of the maf sensor housing, unless it created large amounts of turbulence or something, then with drop in and elbow or dropin elbow and modded snorkel is much better. Or it was an oiled filter and its contaminated maf ?


just not experienced or seen that issue with just a drop in filter
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Old 05-10-2016, 09:42 PM   #18
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There's no way a dry drop in filter will make you run lean, unless you do something ridiculously stupid like reset the ECU before putting it on the dyno like some vendors like to do.
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Old 05-11-2016, 11:09 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve99 View Post
That's rearly weird that just a drop in filter could cause the engine to run lean especially 14:1 lean. and don't understand why that would happen as your not altering the position or the size of the maf sensor housing, unless it created large amounts of turbulence or something, then with drop in and elbow or dropin elbow and modded snorkel is much better. Or it was an oiled filter and its contaminated maf ?


just not experienced or seen that issue with just a drop in filter
And we saw it repeatedly. When we did testing that day we did 3 pulls in 3rd gear, and 3 more in 4th gear. Every single one was consistently lean like that. All 6 pulls.



DIF and modded snorkel didn't make it much better, about a quarter point.



And Silicone elbow, DIF, and modded snorkel wasn't much better than that either, still very lean.

And yes, the K&N is an oiled filter. But no, this is not an example MAF contamination. These were some of the first pulls of the day, and if we had a contaminated MAF we would have seen the same poor results on all of the other intake combinations were did.

I do agree that it is really weird for the reasons that you mentioned, but it also certainly is not the first time we or other people have seen this effect with drop in filters.

Also that post is right here: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=200

It's a good one because it shows stuff that people usually never see like power gain from the silicone elbow, modified snorkel, and combinations of everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayno View Post
There's no way a dry drop in filter will make you run lean, unless you do something ridiculously stupid like reset the ECU before putting it on the dyno like some vendors like to do.
Do you have any data on that, or is that just speculation? If you're insisting that based on the idea that the oil from the filter is contaminating the MAF, then that idea is already unfounded from what I posted above.

And I do agree with you, there are lots of vendors that do "stupid things" like reset the ecu before a dyno run. Usually before the dyno run that they want to look "bad." We reset the ECU before every single intake combination (so 23 times), but we were also using an OFT with stock tune, but that forced the IAM to 1.0 upon reset. This was done for consistency between all combinations, and to clear any sort of learned values.

So while I've seen a ton of dyno charts from people from all sorts of intakes and drop in filters, but they almost never have AFRs. We did extensive testing, and provided tons of data including all kinds of dynos with AFRs for competitor's products. And even better, we don't have a dyno, so 100% of it is 3rd party testing. The only thing we did was change the intakes on the car. There is no reason to think that this data isn't accurate, especially with the extremely large data sample that we have, and how consistent the results are.

Chase
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Old 05-13-2016, 05:13 PM   #20
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I purchased the GS and am awaiting its arrival. Once installed and thrashed on for a while i will post a reply with my feelings on it.
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