BRZ vs E46 M3

[f0rge]

I have an e46 M3 and i have to say that it's an amazing car, I have basic mods: coilovers, swaybars, intake, axle back.

I've been considering getting something a little newer and the FR-S has really caught my eye as a cheap no non-sense sports car

The M3 is a fantastic car, not the fastest in a world of 420hp hp mustangs but definitely still fast enough to get you in trouble.

The biggest thing everyone always says is that maintenance will kill you, and that's a half truth. There are some very expensive services that need to be done, but not that often. It works like oil change -> oil chance -> major service. The major service can run you anywhere from $1500-3000 depending on where you go however it's quite extensive and requires that they keep the car for the day or even overnight as they're changing most of the fluids in the car. The oil is also very very expensive, but i only change it once a year (more often than the car actually requires) so it's not the end of the world.

The big problem is when something breaks (especially anything engine or transmission related) out of warranty and you're looking at serious dollars. You should have a good mechanic that you trust,Ii do and luckily i've been spared any major repairs since i've owned the car (only an alternator so far). Luckily it is by all accounts a relatively bulletproof car if you keep up the maintenance.

How does this car stack up to the very brief autocross drive of an FR-S I've had?

They're completely different. The M3 is way heavier, although much more powerful and easier to take sideways. Turn in on the FR-S is crisper and more urgent (despite the suspension work on the M3), the transitions in the FR-S were faster and easier to make, and overall the car just felt lighter on it's feet.

The M3 is still an amazing driver's car though, on some twisty back roads with the engine singing above 6000rpm is the closest i've been to driving nirvana in my admittedly short life.

The interior on the FR-S leaves a lot to be desired compared to the M3 unfortunately, despite being much older my M3 has options you still cant even get on an FR-S like backup sensors, memory seats, motion activated alarms, 10 way power heated seats, etc. You are definitely losing out on some luxury with the FR-S. The M3 also has a useable back seat, I'm 6' 180lbs and my 6' 225lbs friend can sit behind me and has enough leg and head room to be comfortable, that will never happen in an FR-S.

My M3, 2004 alpine white 6 speed manual:

[D4ng3r]

Originally Posted by f0rge

I have an e46 M3 and i have to say that it's an amazing car, I have basic mods: coilovers, swaybars, intake, axle back.

How much per year would you say you spend on maintenance, and how many kms on your ride?

I would buy it from you in a heartbeat if you decided to move to an FR-S <3

[f0rge]

Originally Posted by D4ng3r

How much per year would you say you spend on maintenance, and how many kms on your ride?

I would buy it from you in a heartbeat if you decided to move to an FR-S <3

144,xxx KMS currently. That's tough to answer, the thing is that i dont really drive my car very much anymore, and the maintenance is really dependant on how fast you put on the KMS. Most years it's just an oil service from BMW ($226 for just an oil change, $580 for an oil service which includes cabin filter and inspection), oil changes are required every 25,000kms so while expensive they're not all that frequent. This year I've had to do belts ($140) and last year I needed new rear trailing arm bushings ($250). Like I mentionned above it's only on the "Inspection Service" years that you're really shelling out the cash, but the service is quite extensive and replaces most fluids so while expensive it's worth it.

I would say on average it's $1000ish maintenance a year, although you'll want some money in the bank in case anything goes wrong, replacing tires after the trailing arm bushings killed them was expensive, replacing the alternator was ~$600, etc... Doing an inspection service, alternator and rear brakes in 1 year was hugely expensive for example.

You just have to realise that everything you do is going to be more expensive because it's a premium brand, and for that reason all parts and service are more expensive. If you're used to Chevy/Honda pricing on parts/labours/mods then be prepared to be shocked when you enter into a world where a nice axle back exhaust costs $2200 and a supercharger is $14,000.

If I wasnt in Canada and you weren't in China I would take you up on that offer, it'll probably be up for sale in the next couple of months, I'm looking to downsize to 1 car and the GF is too afraid to drive the M3 for some reason.

[BioRage]

One of my favorite cars from BMW:


E46 and E92

Anyways, at least here dealer maintence is hella expensive on the E46, as I heard it is quite also high cost to maintain.

Go figure for a race car

[Nihilation]

Some of these prices seem a bit high for the E46 M3's maintenance. More realistic numbers are:

Oil change every 15k miles: $160 from a dealer. Typical oil change is what, $60-70 for good synthetic every 7k miles? So you're not spending much more in oil and you worry about it less often.

18" 225/45 and 255/40 tires: $700 to 1200 installed, depending on the tire. 19's expect to add another $200.

If something major fails on an SMG car it will likely be a component of the SMG transmission, such as a pump or relay. If it's a relay you're out $10, if it's a pump you might be looking at $1500. The percentage of M3's with SMG related issues is far less than the internet leads you to believe.

You're more likely to over rev an engine and pop it with the manual transmission car. Money shift anyone? Can't happen with the SMG.

Rear subframe tearing. If it's caught early you may be looking at a little over $1k. Again much less common than the internet leads you to believe.

Window motors ($40), sunroof track guides (plastic $5 clips), control arm bushings ($60-100) are much more common issues.

I personally love my SMG M3, especially in the DC area with tons of stop and go traffic. Then on the back roads it roars like no other sub 350hp car can. Plus if you have $2k to spare and don't mind giving up a few luxuries, not comforts, you could get an E46 M3 near the 31XX lb range.

Now for my comparison to real-world experience with the FRS:


A good friend of mine just picked up a FRS (you can read about it on http://www.rightfootdown.com/?p=1903 ). We hit the back roads a few weeks ago and damn did it feel nimble. It felt light on it's toes and inputs were instantaneous. The tires were horrible. When driven hard the front end felt it was on the verge of washing out or the rear end was wanted to say hi to the headlights. The engine wasn't necessarily under powered, but certainly was not going to thrill anybody on straight tarmac. The most enjoyable parts of the car were most definitely the response, driving position, and being able to put the right foot down way earlier than most cars when exiting a corner. If I had a BRZ or FRS the first thing I would do is replace those forsaken tires.

For me, I am considering an FRS or BRZ for the fun factor and fuel economy. Mainly the fuel economy, because to me, the E46 M3 is way more of a hoot driven full bore than the FRS or BRZ will ever be. How often do I drive full bore? Perhaps not nearly enough to warrant 333hp over 33MPG.

Ideally you'll drive both cars and reach your own conclusion.

[f0rge]

Originally Posted by Nihilation

Some of these prices seem a bit high for the E46 M3's maintenance. More realistic numbers are:

Oil change every 15k miles: $160 from a dealer. Typical oil change is what, $60-70 for good synthetic every 7k miles? So you're not spending much more in oil and you worry about it less often.

18" 225/45 and 255/40 tires: $700 to 1200 installed, depending on the tire. 19's expect to add another $200.

I'm in Canada so it's 25k kilometers oil change intervals and I guess somehow the oil services are more expensive. I also only go to the dealer because finding that stupid Castrol TWS the car "requires" is hard anywhere else.

I'm also running 245/35-19 and 275/30-19 tires and again for some reason tires cost more in Canada than the States.

[Kris]

I've had my M3 2.5 years now and the only broken part has been my window regulator which cost me $240 to have repaired. I've spent about $1000 in maintenance including valve adjustment, preventive cam bolt replacement and oil/fluid changes. They aren't as scary as forums make them out to be then again I picked up a well sorted low mileage car and not some trashed put away wet wreck. Looking at BRZ for a possible second car.

[trifenix]

I have an 05 zhp and it is a blast to DD. Unparalleled performance and can seat 4 adults just fine.

Tires are expensive
Premium gas @ 19mpg.
Oil change $100
Rtabs $100
Valve adjustment $300
Salmon relay $6
(Luck of the draw) possible failures:
Vanos $2000
Window regulator $60
Water pump $600
Hid ballast igniter $50
Smg issues $2000

You need 2k in the bank for emergency funds.

I am considering an frs for a fun car because toyota/subie parts would be cheaper and have overall lower maint costs. I am scared to track the m3 for fear of expensive repairs.

I think e46 m3 looks awesome. Turn dsc off. Sport mode on. S6...party time! Not sure why people dont like the raspy noise? Revving to 8k is heaven to the ears. Only problem is you end up going way faster than you realize...

I am a toyota fan boy and have been waiting for this car forever. Wanted an affordable reliable fun performance car to learn how to drive and drift.

Bottom line is with european cars, you will never have the peace of mind that your car will never crap out on you. My friends 03 m3 crapped out on the freeway a couple of times. I know this will happen to me someday also but i have AAA lol. With more electronics comes more problems. My 89 corolla never died no matter what and my tacoma will alway get me home at the end of the day. Then again 142hp toyotas never made me grin the way 333hp does. You decide.

[Tbomb 25]

Originally Posted by SHR3D

while i understand many of yalls input, here is my understanding of badging:

when designing the next generation of a model vehicle, you do not change the platform of the vehicle...(that becomes a new model) and in that respect, bmw's are all messed up

an m3.. with a v8?? really? it weighs nearly as much as my 5liter truck /shrug. nice car? yes.. m3? not quite.. m5? surely... m6 even. in anycase, i dont think they planned that aspect out too well

maybe they should have tried something like keeping 3 series within the 3liter range, 4 series in the 4liter range, etc; seems obvious to me for identification purposes

perhaps they should build the 3003, or rather the 3K-3; a 300ftlb 3000cc compact sports coupe. weighing in at around 3000 lbs for $30,000..... this would be of course with all the new technologies which are becoming cheaper and vastly more powerful literally by the hour (no excuse for a $60,000 price tag any more; neither is the stitch pattern on your seat, im sorry) plastics are not heavy, nor expensive, are extremely durable; and, fit an finish is left to manufacturing, not material.

aesthetic design does not induce mass
unless you want your interior to look like jabba the hutt's ass
can you dig it?
(please forgive me if this is a family site, a short scolding by admin will correct this character flaw)

i digress;
i am torn between the e46 m3 and the frs/brz. in the end they will cost the same (i am a qualified technician)

comparatively; on one hand the m3 could remain mostly stock, while the 86 would need at least a small supercharger and a sick set of beef at the corners for my needs. obviously i can put out the extra 50ftlbs and slap on some wheels; but, will the drivetrain hold the added stress for reasonable periods of abuse?

on the other hand, to get the m3 to get 35mpg "on the regular"(read "other than occasionally") without living on some shepard scale mountainpass, would be damn near impossible. not to mention the extra 30 a month on insurance.

granted going from a 13mpg truck down to either car is not going to break the bank..

IF the 86 can take the extra stress of dropping the clutch at 300hp with fat rubber, then i can forsee bmw having some serious competition with any m class.... even when those m's become charged with FI. not at the drags, but, surely through the twisties

i think the interior of the 86 is hideous; and while i dont find the e46 m3s interior particularly displeasing, i find the e36 much more suiting. if only the e36 and e46 could merge into some sort of midrange performance sexual deviant just asking you to punch it (in the back of the head) when you pull out (from her Woahhhthere... parking spot of course *coughcough*)[again, plz insert admin warning for slight modification to my conversational techniques]

while, i would rather not tie her up with zip-ties and gut her(im talking about cars people! gimme a break!), i dont mind hammering out the sharp bits(ok, ok; might be talking about a woman here)

Your are hillarious...but i feel what your saying...

[Tbomb 25]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Another point: OK, so let's say they *won't* build a car that stickers for less than $30k. Fine. Build some freaking smaller/lighterweight sports/sporty cars and price them in the 30s. I'd buy the hell out of a 30k+ BMW FR-S with a few more hp.

You and damn near all of us will but we know that aint happening...

[Tbomb 25]

Im a huge e30 and e36 fan....and i really dig the e46m3....but this is when BMW begin to take this car up market and the reason for the high repair bills,the subframe problems are pretty sad for a car at this price....its a beast of car but for that price my money would be on a C5 Z06 all day long in the used market.