Is there a proper term for this on track behavior?

[Jamestl]

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

Keep in mind that throttle steering can occur in different ways. For example, if your car is set up to be a bit loose in the rear, you can get on the throttle, which causes greater rear slip angle ("oversteer") which can sometimes help the car turn in a bit better, or at least feel as though it is turning in better, and point you more towards the inside of the turn. That's one type of "steering with the throttle."

But depending on the track surface, tires, car setup, etc... it could instead just result in more understeer, since more throttle naturally shifts weight rearward, reducing front end grip. In that scenario, you would be pushed wide, to the outside of the corner. That's a different kind of "steering with the throttle." There are a lot of variables that affect what happens when you lean on the throttle mid-curve, and they will dictate how the vehicle responds. MOST of the time, it's safe to say that getting on the throttle widens your line through a corner, but sometimes you can take advantage of your setup to force a bit more rotation with the throttle.

I'm sure others can give better info, but that's a start anyway.

Maybe your point is the right one, which is that whether it's throttle steer or steering with the throttle it's the same thing (using throttle to change the line of the car) with different effects (oversteer vs. understeer), and it's just up to the people discussing it to clarify what it's meant by it. I was just wondering if there was a specific term for the instance that I was feeling. Looks like the answer may be no (or at least doesn't seem to be consensus, which means it'll require clarification anyway).

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by Jamestl

Please don't apologize. You're using your time to provide advice and perspective, and that's helpful even if it's constructive criticism. I'm a fairly novice driver, and certainly have a lot to learn, hence my question on this as it's a foreign feeling for me.

On to your points.
- Circling in a tamer manner -- as mentioned, definitely have lots of room to improve as a novice, but certainly didn't feel tame in the driver's seat! The sound on the video recorder isn't great so you do have to turn it up a bit to hear well.

- Track out -- are there particular corners where you feel I didn't track out enough? There's one corner in particular where I'm definitely guilty and it's something I need to work on, and in general I'm probably a foot off the edge just because I'm not comfortable enough to be that close yet, but my instructors did not feel I'm far off the edge on the other corners. Not challenging your assertion, just want to better understand if there's any particular corner(s) you're referring to.

- Apex -- Again, specific corner commentary would be helpful.

- Stability control -- everything was off.

- Throttle steer -- got it. Your explanation makes perfect sense and that was the sensation going through that corner. Is that a term of art and when I say throttle steer everyone knows that it's different than steering with the throttle?

Well, if you are just starting, dont be too hard on yourself. It feels like everything is super quick and that its a razor's edge but as you do it more, it will all slow down (your perception of things) and will feel quite calm.

Well, with the sound as high as it can go (both video and PC sound settings), I can hear a bit more and that helps a bit more. What I mean by hit or miss apex, for example at min 1:35, that berm is (looks at least) very flat and round, that is part of the track, and you are close to it, but not touching it. You should be over it, so you are easily 2-3 feet off the apex there, which is kind of big. For track outs, its hard to tell because you should have to steer towards the exit, or unwind the wheel completely mid corner to get to the exit of a corner, you get there naturally while trying to negotiate a corner. If you didnt, it means you could've gone faster thru the corner.

For now just worry about feeling what the car is doing and controlling it (it does what you want it to do). Proper car control is something I wish more people I see at the track had. Speed will come naturally after that.

For me, throttle steer and steering with the throttle is pretty much the same thing and is just generating more rotation by increasing the slip angle at the rear and is only possible in RWD (or AWD with rear bias) cars. Others might have different definitions of it, but it is not important what its called or what it is, really.

Last thing since you are starting. One thing I wished I knew when I started, most instructors want you to be a safe driver because you want to leave the track with a car, and they want to leave the track walking. As a rookie, there are many things that are taught to you so that you can be safer, but that dont really make you a faster driver. Its still ok to learn it all, but its not the be all / end all.

[Jamestl]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

Well, if you are just starting, dont be too hard on yourself. It feels like everything is super quick and that its a razor's edge but as you do it more, it will all slow down (your perception of things) and will feel quite calm.

Well, with the sound as high as it can go (both video and PC sound settings), I can hear a bit more and that helps a bit more. What I mean by hit or miss apex, for example at min 1:35, that berm is (looks at least) very flat and round, that is part of the track, and you are close to it, but not touching it. You should be over it, so you are easily 2-3 feet off the apex there, which is kind of big. For track outs, its hard to tell because you should have to steer towards the exit, or unwind the wheel completely mid corner to get to the exit of a corner, you get there naturally while trying to negotiate a corner. If you didnt, it means you could've gone faster thru the corner.

For now just worry about feeling what the car is doing and controlling it (it does what you want it to do). Proper car control is something I wish more people I see at the track had. Speed will come naturally after that.

For me, throttle steer and steering with the throttle is pretty much the same thing and is just generating more rotation by increasing the slip angle at the rear and is only possible in RWD (or AWD with rear bias) cars. Others might have different definitions of it, but it is not important what its called or what it is, really.

Last thing since you are starting. One thing I wished I knew when I started, most instructors want you to be a safe driver because you want to leave the track with a car, and they want to leave the track walking. As a rookie, there are many things that are taught to you so that you can be safer, but that dont really make you a faster driver. Its still ok to learn it all, but its not the be all / end all.

Thanks, again, Icecreamtruck, for the comments. One part (bolded above) that was a little bit confusing. Unwinding earlier is something I'm trying to work on, but I think you're suggesting to unwind completely by mid turn? Is that right?

[Joesurf79]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

Well, if you are just starting, dont be too hard on yourself. It feels like everything is super quick and that its a razor's edge but as you do it more, it will all slow down (your perception of things) and will feel quite calm.
...
For now just worry about feeling what the car is doing and controlling it (it does what you want it to do). Proper car control is something I wish more people I see at the track had. Speed will come naturally after that.
...
Last thing since you are starting. One thing I wished I knew when I started, most instructors want you to be a safe driver because you want to leave the track with a car, and they want to leave the track walking. As a rookie, there are many things that are taught to you so that you can be safer, but that dont really make you a faster driver. Its still ok to learn it all, but its not the be all / end all.

All fantastic advice for a new track novice for sure! To add to the point about everything happening in WARP speed for the first few events. This is often a byproduct of not looking anywhere near far enough ahead. KEEP THOSE EYES UP

Looking up means that you see everything happening sooner, your brain has more time to process it, and then respond. Give the brain more time to process information, and all of a sudden you're taking in more data than you were before. You feel / hear more car feedback that you can then use... If you're looking too close in, you're already behind the momentum of the car, and just trying to play catch up. Which then feels like an endless game of catch-up and that you just cant go faster, wondering how the guys passing you are going so fast... You go where you are looking - look farther, you'll go faster, and watch those lap times drop

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by Jamestl

Thanks, again, Icecreamtruck, for the comments. One part (bolded above) that was a little bit confusing. Unwinding earlier is something I'm trying to work on, but I think you're suggesting to unwind completely by mid turn? Is that right?

No sry, I mean the other way around, not to unwind too soon, or too much. Instructors are always about the need to unwind to let the car accelerate that students usually end up unwinding too much. Also, like @Joesurf79 said, looking far ahead is very important, cant believe I didnt mention it

[Jamestl]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

No sry, I mean the other way around, not to unwind too soon, or too much. Instructors are always about the need to unwind to let the car accelerate that students usually end up unwinding too much. Also, like @Joesurf79 said, looking far ahead is very important, cant believe I didnt mention it

Ok cool. I thought I'd have to grow another two pair to unwind at midpoint!

Thanks again both for the advice.

The list of things to work on is such a long list... looking up, brake harder, brake more consistently, ease off brakes, better rev match, smooth turn in, smooth track out, and so on and so forth.

[Joesurf79]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

Instructors are always about the need to unwind to let the car accelerate that students usually end up unwinding too much.


Also, like @Joesurf79 said, looking far ahead is very important, cant believe I didnt mention it

I recently started instructing drivers on track, and the first few sessions in the car were tough on me because I had to be out EVEN FURTHER ahead of the student. From the right seat, I had to be 4-5 seconds ahead or where I was used to already!


It is surprising how many things we innately do once you practice them enough - it's hard to recall and regurgitate them all first run through

[dutchman1]

Not to over simplify it, but I've found that if I'm already oversteering a little, more throttle will increase oversteer. If I'm already understeering, more throttle worsens understeer.

Maybe on the other corners you're pushing a bit when you get back on the power, and on this one you're rotating a little when you get back on the power.

[Joesurf79]

Originally Posted by Jamestl

Ok cool. I thought I'd have to grow another two pair to unwind at midpoint!

Thanks again both for the advice.

The list of things to work on is such a long list... looking up, brake harder, brake more consistently, ease off brakes, better rev match, smooth turn in, smooth track out, and so on and so forth.

For me - Looking up is the crux of the issue. That+ repetition.


The more time you give yourself and the more familiar you become with the "limits" of the car (even in near stock form - get decent brake fluid, pads and a bit of negative front camber/zero toe, oil cooler if you're hooked on this stuff ) the rest comes naturally if you're looking up, with repetition and seat time.


Try and tuck in behind some folks that are just a hair faster (in similar cars if possible) once you're comfortable, and follow their lines / braking points.

[Jamestl]

Originally Posted by dutchman1

Not to over simplify it, but I've found that if I'm already oversteering a little, more throttle will increase oversteer. If I'm already understeering, more throttle worsens understeer.

Maybe on the other corners you're pushing a bit when you get back on the power, and on this one you're rotating a little when you get back on the power.

Yeah that seems to be what's happening. Just need to recreate it as much as I can because it felt pretty awesome!

[Jamestl]

Originally Posted by Joesurf79

For me - Looking up is the crux of the issue. That+ repetition.


The more time you give yourself and the more familiar you become with the "limits" of the car (even in near stock form - get decent brake fluid, pads and a bit of negative front camber/zero toe, oil cooler if you're hooked on this stuff ) the rest comes naturally if you're looking up, with repetition and seat time.


Try and tuck in behind some folks that are just a hair faster (in similar cars if possible) once you're comfortable, and follow their lines / braking points.

Addicted I am. All the items you mentioned I have already, so for now I really don't think I need more mods (want is a separate issue...). The car feels really good on track seemingly without any bad habits.

I generally try to run with NASA and I'm currently in group 2 and so far but it seems like group 3 is where people get faster and 2 is this no mans land between when people are good enough to be out by themselves but not fast enough yet and need to work on more skills. As such not a lot of people to follow, especially in momentum cars. But since there's more than enough to work on I'll be occupied for a while!

[Joesurf79]

Originally Posted by Jamestl

Addicted I am.... But since there's more than enough to work on I'll be occupied for a while!

Welcome to the fold! We all keep learning, trying things, make small mistakes. It's a fun pursuit for sure!


Learn from mistakes early on and form the good habits / don't dwell on mistakes you do make. No one is perfect, except maybe Senna

[Racecomp Engineering]

This thread....*sniff*....it makes me feel really good. This forum is so far ahead of others in terms of patiently helping others that ask nicely. Good people on this forum.



- Andrew

[Stang70Fastback]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

This thread....*sniff*....it makes me feel really good. This forum is so far ahead of others in terms of patiently helping others that ask nicely. Good people on this forum.



- Andrew

STFU, Andrew. Nobody asked YOU!