Truth about using STI Brembos on the twins

[BunnyRZed]

So brake calipers are specifically designed for just a specific car like the BRZ right? Wrong, I doubt most people know that the BRZ front calipers are from 08+ WRX and rear calipers are from the 10+ Legacy GT. Yes, the same WRX that can be fitted with the STi Brembos front calipers. We're running calipers that are made to stop 3300+lbs car and not specifically designed for the BRZ. Just a food for thought.

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by BunnyRZed

So brake calipers are specifically designed for just a specific car like the BRZ right? Wrong, I doubt most people know that the BRZ front calipers are from 08+ WRX and rear calipers are from the 10+ Legacy GT. Yes, we're running calipers that are made to stop 3300+lbs car. Just a food for thought.

I'm well aware that OEs use the same (or very similar) parts on multiple cars. However, the STI Brembos are not a direct swap onto the car (otherwise there wouldn't be such a major DIY thread for it), and so they clearly weren't directly intended for the car. Will they work? Yes, we've already established that they can be put on the car and will function in most normal conditions. The main point is that there are real concerns to be had if someone was planning on doing the STI Brembo swap for a car that will be tracked on any sort of routine basis. It's also a more general lesson to thoroughly consider how each mod effects the overall system that is the car.

The point about the stock calipers being made to stop a 3300+ lbs car actually adds more validity to my statement that with a few easy upgrades (pads, fluids, and lines) the OE calipers are more than sufficient for most people's cars.

[protpibe]

Lmao let this thread die, white knights! Let it die!!!!!

[BunnyRZed]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

The point about the stock calipers being made to stop a 3300+ lbs car actually adds more validity to my statement that with a few easy upgrades (pads, fluids, and lines) the OE calipers are more than sufficient for most people's cars.

It's fine on the street but once you're on the track you're going to cook your brake. The advantage of running BBK is having higher heat capacity because of the larger rotors to help with brake fade.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

EVERYTHING aftermarket has the potential to fail, by that logic you shouldn't touch anything. what will fail though? i really am interested to know so i can see it coming, so far under panic braking i have had no issues except when i'm on snow tires, but that has more to do with it being a soft compound tire.

and yes, everything does have the potential to fail. I broke Two KW V3 front struts in half, one whiteline toe arm in half. how you ask? it all happened under relaxed street driving not while i was beating the car up.

this thread has a lot of info, but also has a lot of people that DO NOT HAVE personal experience with this setup. its all speculation, all be it with a lot of knowledge base but still speculation at that. I mounted the bleeders the right way. i have tracked on this, auto-x, and daily driven for over 2 years now. for novices like me it is a decent upgrade. many have driven my car and testified to it being significantly better than stock braking performance, but i also have sticky tires and a lot of other suspension modifications, just doing brembo's seems idiotic to me, its about the entire car as a full package.

bottom line is, the factual information is here. let people decide for themselves. is this a track BBK, by no means. but if paired with the right modification i think this is a very cost effective way to get better braking performance. this fear ongoing stuff needs to stop, and if you haven't driven with them, i don't think you should speculate as to what will happen.

But, it's NOT a cost effective way to get better braking performance, because you're NOT improving braking capacity. Lets not forget that braking performance is primarily dictated by tires grip, not the brake system. Lets also not forget that the car has Electronic Brake Force Distribution, and under normal circumstances, the EBD will automatically self-proportion braking force to maximize braking performance, overworking the undersized rear STI brembos.

Let me repeat: you have LESS braking force in the rear with the STI Brembo rear caliper, than with the stock FRS/BRZ rear caliper.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by BunnyRZed

So brake calipers are specifically designed for just a specific car like the BRZ right? Wrong, I doubt most people know that the BRZ front calipers are from 08+ WRX and rear calipers are from the 10+ Legacy GT. Yes, the same WRX that can be fitted with the STi Brembos front calipers. We're running calipers that are made to stop 3300+lbs car and not specifically designed for the BRZ. Just a food for thought.

You'll notice, that the brake balance between the front and rear of the BRZ is completely different than that of the Legacy and WRX.

Yes, the brakes are parts bin parts, but no, the bias is completely different from the other two cars. Thats why they were mixed and matched, instead of lifted straight from one car.

On that note, the front caliper is from a 268hp/3200lb car, and yet, is insufficient for experienced drivers on a 200hp/2700lb car, even with upgraded pads. Makes you wonder how underbraked a lot of street cars are...

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by BunnyRZed

It's fine on the street but once you're on the track you're going to cook your brake. The advantage of running BBK is having higher heat capacity because of the larger rotors to help with brake fade.

Except... you're overloading the fronts, so the increased heat capacity is overshadowed by the disproportionately larger amount of heat generated by the front calipers.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

But, it's NOT a cost effective way to get better braking performance, because you're NOT improving braking capacity. Lets not forget that braking performance is primarily dictated by tires grip, not the brake system. Lets also not forget that the car has Electronic Brake Force Distribution, and under normal circumstances, the EBD will automatically self-proportion braking force to maximize braking performance, overworking the undersized rear STI brembos.

Let me repeat: you have LESS braking force in the rear with the STI Brembo rear caliper, than with the stock FRS/BRZ rear caliper.

cool...except i specifically stated that i did not do rear brembos for that reason. my bleeders are swapped. they are mounted the right way. i also have gripper tries than stock.

oh i give up. i'l just check in once in a while to make people know i didn't die, yet.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by The Racers Line

My personal take... Mine were mounted upside down to keep the pistons correct, and I bled the calipers pointed up, unmounted.

I have been running Front and Rear 13' STI Brembos on my FRS. I started off running Stoptech Posi-quiets in the front and stoptech Street Performance in the rear.(because of the aforementioned bias from other people) I had no plans to track the car when I put the brakes on, and the pad choice reflects that.

I now have 5 track days on this setup. Off the bat I noticed more braking force and better pedal feel, however with that pad setup, I cooked them quickly. I could usually get 3 maybe 4 good laps until I had extreme fade. I only noticed the bias difference when braking hard and consistent from 100+. This setup for the street was perfect.

Last track day I switched out to Winmax W4's front and rear. I was running at Laguna Seca, which is notoriously hard on brakes. The brake bias difference was IMMENSE. I had tons and tons of braking power and consistency(which I attribute mostly to the pads)but the front was so much stronger that the rear would actually dance around on hard braking. I will be switching back to the stock rear setup soon, and test that as well.

I don't plan to have this setup for much longer, as I get more and more into tracking the car. It will be replaced with something actually designed for this car.

I was thinking, why on earth wouldn't you just bleed them without having them mounted, then mount them...

Jaden

[BunnyRZed]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

cool...except i specifically stated that i did not do rear brembos for that reason. my bleeders are swapped. they are mounted the right way. i also have gripper tries than stock.

oh i give up. i'l just check in once in a while to make people know i didn't die, yet.

+1 Didn't do the rear calipers either.

[BunnyRZed]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

You'll notice, that the brake balance between the front and rear of the BRZ is completely different than that of the Legacy and WRX.

Yes, the brakes are parts bin parts, but no, the bias is completely different from the other two cars. Thats why they were mixed and matched, instead of lifted straight from one car.

On that note, the front caliper is from a 268hp/3200lb car, and yet, is insufficient for experienced drivers on a 200hp/2700lb car, even with upgraded pads. Makes you wonder how underbraked a lot of street cars are...

My logic is since we're using WRX front calipers and their upgrade is Brembo STi front calipers. In that respect then it would be the same if we just did that too and kept the stock Legacy GT rear calipers.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

cool...except i specifically stated that i did not do rear brembos for that reason. my bleeders are swapped. they are mounted the right way. i also have gripper tries than stock.

oh i give up. i'l just check in once in a while to make people know i didn't die, yet.

Ooops, I missed that. My bad.

[Metabrz]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The Cost is mostly R&D, and let me break it down for you.

- FEA analysis (least amount of weight added to be sufficient to hold the brake caliper onto the knuckle)
- CNC Machning (to make the actual bracket)
- Getting the OEM parts to measure and test fit against
- Actually testing the setup to know there's no unexpected failures

Then lets add:
- Amortization of the CNC machine over a period of time
- Wages for everyone involved


Versus, on an old car

- Take any caliper
- Machine a bracket to make the caliper fit at the proper location for a given rotor
- Call it a day.



FYI, in the case of the AP kit, the brackets cost more than the calipers, which cost more than the hats, which cost more than the rotors.

You know I would agree with this statement if the product I was talking about (Brembo's on the Ts BRZ) were 100% new.

I would be surprised if the specifications for the piston size were original at the time of prototyping.

Brembo's knowledge base means that they can just plug in metrics and the job is largely done.

I find it difficult (but not impossible) to believe AP incur more cost on developing a bracket than any other component in a kit.

Its a block of machined alloy - providing you know that the quality your ingot manufacturer is outputting is high and quantifiable (ISO) its not rocket science building a brake bracket.

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by Metabrz

Brembo's knowledge base means that they can just plug in metrics and the job is largely done.

I work for one of the largest automotive parts manufacturers in the world, and this is a very oversimplified understanding of how new products get developed and produced within such a company. Granted I work for a German company not Italian, so perhaps the culture is a bit different there. However, there are general business practices, functions, and red-tape that make the process much more complex. Sure, that's all that may be required to design the bracket but there are a lot of other costs that are incurred through various processes and personnel "required" to get that product to the market.

Also, a lot of parts companies will sell their own products to other offices/plants within the same company at a mark-up. So by the time it reaches the end consumer the price can be heavily inflated, and this can happen disproportionately so depending on the region.