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Old 07-09-2012, 09:09 AM   #127
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Did my first raw logs this weekend using PCAN Link and PCAN to USB adapter.

Got lots of MB of data to go through now. Thank god for Excel.
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Old 07-09-2012, 09:42 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambbrose View Post
Did my first raw logs this weekend using PCAN Link and PCAN to USB adapter.

Got lots of MB of data to go through now. Thank god for Excel.
very true! If it is still there EvolutionM has an excel translator for mitsulogger not sure if it would work, but could save you some formating. I'm sorry guys I was having too much fun at the track and forgot to get the laptop out.

G
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Great info in here. arghx7 what do you do?

He's obviously a very knowledgable landscaper.
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Old 07-09-2012, 05:24 PM   #129
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Awesome work guys!

Couple questions:

1. Can knock be datalogged yet?
2. Any ideas if closed loop mode is MAF-only or MAF-speed density combo?
3. No sh*t, the FA20 has a wideband? George, I'm looking forward to you finding a way to datalog that.

To my wee-little simple mind, that torque dip looks like a result of the timing drop, which we expect (and typically tune for via knock data) at max torque before increasing again on the way to HP peak, but given cam phasing, has anyone looked at the MAF vs. RPM vs. Load data across a WOT pull (dyno or track)? I think someone had already alluded to it that intake harmonics could play havoc with MAF readings, but without being able to increase timing safely with knock data for reference, it would be hard to know for sure.
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Old 07-09-2012, 07:50 PM   #130
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[quote=SprayedBigCube;304832]Awesome work guys!

Couple questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SprayedBigCube View Post
1. Can knock be datalogged yet?
No access to SSM's as of now with EvoScan, however the EcuTek logger will log Knock...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SprayedBigCube View Post
2. Any ideas if closed loop mode is MAF-only or MAF-speed density combo?
MAP until low to Mid LTFT transistion as far as the logger dictates, in other words the MAP is used to control Idle quality only. Once you get to the MTFT it is MAF only.

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Originally Posted by SprayedBigCube View Post
3. No sh*t, the FA20 has a wideband? George, I'm looking forward to you finding a way to datalog that.
Unfortunately so am I, I'm about sick of 5th degree exponential scaling factors... Just so you know, yes we can log it, but the scaling in EcuFlash is way off, bambrose is working on identifying the bytes, I'm working on the scaling factors. I wish I could switch with him

Quote:
Originally Posted by SprayedBigCube View Post
To my wee-little simple mind, that torque dip looks like a result of the timing drop, which we expect (and typically tune for via knock data) at max torque before increasing again on the way to HP peak, but given cam phasing, has anyone looked at the MAF vs. RPM vs. Load data across a WOT pull (dyno or track)? I think someone had already alluded to it that intake harmonics could play havoc with MAF readings, but without being able to increase timing safely with knock data for reference, it would be hard to know for sure.
I have an intake that has drastically smoothed out the MAF readings, day and night differences, and no difference, I believe the unanomous theory from us thus far is it is related to the cam timing control. It was Dimmen's brilliant deduction, so I will let him explain.

G
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Great info in here. arghx7 what do you do?

He's obviously a very knowledgable landscaper.
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Old 07-09-2012, 07:59 PM   #131
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[quote=jedibow;305075]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SprayedBigCube View Post
Awesome work guys!

Couple questions:



No access to SSM's as of now with EvoScan, however the EcuTek logger will log Knock...



MAP until low to Mid LTFT transistion as far as the logger dictates, in other words the MAP is used to control Idle quality only. Once you get to the MTFT it is MAF only.



Unfortunately so am I, I'm about sick of 5th degree exponential scaling factors... Just so you know, yes we can log it, but the scaling in EcuFlash is way off, bambrose is working on identifying the bytes, I'm working on the scaling factors. I wish I could switch with him



I have an intake that has drastically smoothed out the MAF readings, day and night differences, and no difference, I believe the unanomous theory from us thus far is it is related to the cam timing control. It was Dimmen's brilliant deduction, so I will let him explain.

G
Hmm... Not just the cam timing, but how the cam timing interacts with header scavenging. The dip is possibly a point of low scavenging efficiency which will hurt cylinder filling. Some of Jedi's logs show that timing is advanced in that area, which could be because with worse filling, there is worse charge motion/slower flame speed and the motor needs the advance to create peak pressure at the ~14 degree ATDC. So the AVCS may be moving around in the 'dip' to make the best of the situation, keeping in mind that the low rpm torque 'hump' is damn near the same as peak. But the 'solution' is probably in the headers, but also in matching the AVCS to the new headers.

Or something...
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Old 07-09-2012, 09:49 PM   #132
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The dip is due to poor VE there. Keep in mind I'm tuning a full stand-alone Hydra EMS in speed density so MAF is not part of my equation. While intake cam and exhaust cam tuning, along with other strategies minimize the dip, it's still there.

I have tuned other high output NA engines that use variable cam tuning and high lift cams so I've dealt with this before. From everything I've learned so far this engine has an aggressive exhaust cam that uses cam timing down low to keep it EPA friendly/fuel efficient. Even when cam timing is changed on both intake and exhaust its just not enough to elevate the torque dip entirely. I suspect the cams centerline could be tweaked to correct some of this but at the expense of peak power.

Thanks,
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Old 07-09-2012, 09:54 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
The dip is due to poor VE there. Keep in mind I'm tuning a full stand-alone Hydra EMS in speed density so MAF is not part of my equation. While intake cam and exhaust cam tuning, along with other strategies minimize the dip, it's still there.

I have tuned other high output NA engines that use variable cam tuning and high lift cams so I've dealt with this before. From everything I've learned so far this engine has an aggressive exhaust cam that uses cam timing down low to keep it EPA friendly/fuel efficient. Even when cam timing is changed on both intake and exhaust its just not enough to elevate the torque dip entirely. I suspect the cams centerline could be tweaked to correct some of this but at the expense of peak power.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow
How did extending the offset between the intake cam, and the exhaust cam effect the dip? Have you tried this?

For clarification I meant decrease cam overlap, sorry that was not clear...
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Originally Posted by ImAwesome
Great info in here. arghx7 what do you do?

He's obviously a very knowledgable landscaper.

Last edited by jedibow; 07-09-2012 at 10:05 PM.
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Old 07-09-2012, 09:57 PM   #134
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Volumetric Efficiency = cylinder filling. It is a gap in the pipe tuning that is reducing the VE there. You see it with bike flat spots, too.
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:30 PM   #135
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The 2GR-FSE is the same way. You have a bump in torque and then as the cam phasing decreases with higher rpm you get a torque dip. The ignition timing changes are less pronounced than in the FA20. All this happens after the port injectors turn off. Start of injection for the GDI system is around 310 BTDC for that engine as the torque drops down.

It looks like nobody has figured out the injection timing yet on the FA20.
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:37 PM   #136
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Can someone get some reasonably close intake runner lengths, btw?
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:40 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimman View Post
Can someone get some reasonably close intake runner lengths, btw?
Once I get the clutch rebuilt in the Evo I will have a second car so I could pull the manifold and string out the lengths. If you want I could probably even get you volume since it would be off?

G

Do I have any volunteers to help with the clutch Job????
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Great info in here. arghx7 what do you do?

He's obviously a very knowledgable landscaper.
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Old 07-09-2012, 11:32 PM   #138
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Agreed. I wonder how much wiggle room there is from the EPA friendly exhaust timing that could be recovered. Toyota must have really yanked on it alot to create a large lobe separation angle for little to negative overlap.

I assume if you're tuning in speed density, you've either got a real VE table or god forbid (as GM has recently done with Gen IV ECUs) an inferred (from parameters) VE table. How bad are the midrange VE numbers looking? Can you post a screen shot?

Also, I would assume the FA20 MAF is common to other Subaru or Toyota engines. What's the range and how far thru the range does the stock power put it (or how close to maxed out is it?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
The dip is due to poor VE there. Keep in mind I'm tuning a full stand-alone Hydra EMS in speed density so MAF is not part of my equation. While intake cam and exhaust cam tuning, along with other strategies minimize the dip, it's still there.

I have tuned other high output NA engines that use variable cam tuning and high lift cams so I've dealt with this before. From everything I've learned so far this engine has an aggressive exhaust cam that uses cam timing down low to keep it EPA friendly/fuel efficient. Even when cam timing is changed on both intake and exhaust its just not enough to elevate the torque dip entirely. I suspect the cams centerline could be tweaked to correct some of this but at the expense of peak power.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow
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Old 07-09-2012, 11:34 PM   #139
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If you're anywhere between Pensacola and Panama City Beach, I'll help.

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Originally Posted by jedibow View Post
Once I get the clutch rebuilt in the Evo I will have a second car so I could pull the manifold and string out the lengths. If you want I could probably even get you volume since it would be off?

G

Do I have any volunteers to help with the clutch Job????
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Old 07-09-2012, 11:35 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SprayedBigCube View Post
Agreed. I wonder how much wiggle room there is from the EPA friendly exhaust timing that could be recovered. Toyota must have really yanked on it alot to create a large lobe separation angle for little to negative overlap.

I assume if you're tuning in speed density, you've either got a real VE table or god forbid (as GM has recently done with Gen IV ECUs) an inferred (from parameters) VE table. How bad are the midrange VE numbers looking? Can you post a screen shot?

Also, I would assume the FA20 MAF is common to other Subaru or Toyota engines. What's the range and how far thru the range does the stock power put it (or how close to maxed out is it?).
I'll be perfectly honest, the MAF in my car is almost exactly the same as the one in the IS250, I think it may be a toyota MAF...

G
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Great info in here. arghx7 what do you do?

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