follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Forced Induction

Forced Induction Turbo, Supercharger, Methanol, Nitrous


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-28-2013, 05:50 PM   #29
Dezoris
Senior Member
 
Dezoris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: FR-S
Location: IL
Posts: 2,857
Thanks: 519
Thanked 2,997 Times in 1,095 Posts
Mentioned: 159 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonolin View Post
Isn't he running injectors at least, at 300whp level?
Thing is I am going for reliability, I was trying to test and prove where that point is. I don't want a car always in the shop.

Nelsmars only mods are injectors, pump, E85. No exhaust, headers or oil cooler.
But any car running over 260HP will need injectors and pump on the FA20.

Thats the point where the duty cycle starts getting maxed out.

One of the main reasons I am staying conservative is because I don't have to mess with any of that. And the car just works well in all conditions.
If you want a rocket then you have to spend more time and money on more supporting mods. But the potential is there.
__________________
Dezoris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2013, 06:02 PM   #30
Brian@Vortech
 
Brian@Vortech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: Vortech Supercharged M6 FR-S UM
Location: SoCal
Posts: 207
Thanks: 251
Thanked 616 Times in 149 Posts
Mentioned: 75 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Dezoris for President!
Brian@Vortech is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Brian@Vortech For This Useful Post:
Dezoris (08-29-2013)
Old 08-28-2013, 06:14 PM   #31
Dezoris
Senior Member
 
Dezoris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: FR-S
Location: IL
Posts: 2,857
Thanks: 519
Thanked 2,997 Times in 1,095 Posts
Mentioned: 159 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian@Vortech View Post
Dezoris for President!
That would ruin my approval ratings.
__________________
Dezoris is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dezoris For This Useful Post:
Pete (08-28-2013)
Old 08-28-2013, 06:32 PM   #32
Pete
Senior Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: 22 BRZ
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 615
Thanks: 1,341
Thanked 478 Times in 230 Posts
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Excellent review & video as always @Dezoris. Why "SavageGeese"?
__________________
2013 FRS -> 2011 CTS-V -> 2006 Cayman S -> 2015 GTI -> 2022 BRZ
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 01:24 AM   #33
Dezoris
Senior Member
 
Dezoris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: FR-S
Location: IL
Posts: 2,857
Thanks: 519
Thanked 2,997 Times in 1,095 Posts
Mentioned: 159 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZionsWrath View Post
Curious what alignment you are running
-1.5 F
-1.3 R

Toe out front 1/8th
Toe in rear 1/16th

Much more than that and street wear suffers.
__________________
Dezoris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 02:07 AM   #34
evo4g63
Senior Member
 
evo4g63's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Drives: 2016 Subaru WRX
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 979
Thanks: 235
Thanked 329 Times in 231 Posts
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Good video Dezoris. I don't own a Vortech unit but this is very helpful to the FA20 community.
__________________
-2016 Subaru WRX
-2013 Scion FR-S: Wastegated Vortech V3'd, E85 SOLD
evo4g63 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 05:24 AM   #35
clintavo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Drives: BRZ
Location: 91351
Posts: 128
Thanks: 106
Thanked 38 Times in 23 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dezoris View Post
The way I have it setup is about 55 HP over stock.
Up from 155HP at the wheels to 212HP.

With the more aggressive map I can make 240HP which is 85HP more.

For track you don't want to be running high timing advance it's too risky, but for street you could run with 85HP extra all day.

How do you feel about that?
I'm surprised by how much HP was lost with the conservative tune. I would have suspected more like 10-15 hp shy of the ragged edge, but 30

I tried Pentosin, and was unimpressed. It still crunched second when cold, and sometimes even when warm.
A Canadian member (can't remember who) posted good things about Redline Lightweight Shockproof. I switched about 500 miles ago, and am happy. Cold is as good as the Pentosin, warm is noticeably better. Living in SoCal, I don't contend with super cold starts. It is rated 75w140, so I would think it OK in the cold, while holding up to high track temps better.
clintavo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 08:40 AM   #36
regal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: Scion FR-S/Toyota Yaris
Location: PA
Posts: 1,438
Thanks: 21
Thanked 316 Times in 232 Posts
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
In fact until Innovate decides to intercool and offer a proper IAT solution the Vortech is the only supercharger to consider if you plan on daily driving and running at the track reliably without making fuel system changes and adding other cooling solutions.
Just an FYI: A good tuner can calculate the intake temperature after the innovate, its just basic thermo. The concept has been used for years and is explained in Corky Bell's books. There is an IAT sensor solution available for the Innovate for tuners who don't trust adiabatic charts. At +50hp you are adamant that an intercooler is a requirement but you may want to keep an open mind about that. I haven't ruled out the twin screw just yet, the simplicity may prove to be a good thing in the long run.
__________________
2013 FRS Argento Silver 6MT

Mods:
Clear fender side lights
Tactrix ZA1JB01C 2014 Calib
regal is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to regal For This Useful Post:
evo4g63 (08-29-2013)
Old 08-29-2013, 11:53 AM   #37
Dezoris
Senior Member
 
Dezoris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: FR-S
Location: IL
Posts: 2,857
Thanks: 519
Thanked 2,997 Times in 1,095 Posts
Mentioned: 159 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by regal View Post
Just an FYI: A good tuner can calculate the intake temperature after the innovate, its just basic thermo. The concept has been used for years and is explained in Corky Bell's books. There is an IAT sensor solution available for the Innovate for tuners who don't trust adiabatic charts. At +50hp you are adamant that an intercooler is a requirement but you may want to keep an open mind about that. I haven't ruled out the twin screw just yet, the simplicity may prove to be a good thing in the long run.
I am getting tired of this argument.

I have yet to be in or see logs on someone car running 91 or 92 octane that has great performance that would be stable on the track.

It wont safely operate under extended load on 91 or 92. You have to run e85 or meth injection along with fuel system upgrades.


I just watched evo4g63s tune and drama with Tony tuning on 91 then switching to e85.
The car was not happy on 91just was not stable.

It went from 190hp to 230 because of fuel. Issue becomes most anyone running this kit hard needs e85 because of cooling and tuning stability. I understand you dont need an IC and it can be tuned around.

But this kit is sold world wide with an intercooler. Ecutek directly said they dont understand why it is being sold without one. Secondly you lose flexibility of running all fuels safely and running e85 kills your mpg dropping you into the 17 to 19mpg range.

You dont have any of these issues with the vortech which is why its the better kit out of the box on all fuels for street and track and it has more over head.

The Innovate with e85 feels great though amazing torque.
__________________
Dezoris is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dezoris For This Useful Post:
davesrave (12-12-2013), evo4g63 (08-29-2013)
Old 08-30-2013, 06:47 AM   #38
regal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: Scion FR-S/Toyota Yaris
Location: PA
Posts: 1,438
Thanks: 21
Thanked 316 Times in 232 Posts
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dezoris View Post
I am getting tired of this argument.

I have yet to be in or see logs on someone car running 91 or 92 octane that has great performance that would be stable on the track.
.

Wow I won't argue with you but you're basically saying the twin screw alternative is not even road worthy. Guess I'll hold off on FI for a while longer. Hope you keep your car and keep us posted with long term stuff.

I am a bit surprised you consider the stock suspension perfect, I find the front spring rates a tad too low, it translates into a slight uneasiness taking turns thru hills not a big deal but its there. Have you taken a trip thru rural southern Illinois yet?

Thanks again.
__________________
2013 FRS Argento Silver 6MT

Mods:
Clear fender side lights
Tactrix ZA1JB01C 2014 Calib
regal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2013, 09:50 AM   #39
ThisIsChrisKim
Hockey Playing Scientist
 
ThisIsChrisKim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Drives: 2013 BRZ Limited 6MT (WRB)
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 145
Thanks: 2
Thanked 33 Times in 21 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dezoris View Post
Thing is I am going for reliability, I was trying to test and prove where that point is. I don't want a car always in the shop.

Nelsmars only mods are injectors, pump, E85. No exhaust, headers or oil cooler.
But any car running over 260HP will need injectors and pump on the FA20.

Thats the point where the duty cycle starts getting maxed out.

One of the main reasons I am staying conservative is because I don't have to mess with any of that. And the car just works well in all conditions.
If you want a rocket then you have to spend more time and money on more supporting mods. But the potential is there.
After looking at your fluids analyses, you're feeling good about running this setup for a long time or are you a little uneasy about the longevity? I know there's been a lot of speculation about how well this transmission will hold up under the added torque of FI. What are your thoughts?
ThisIsChrisKim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2013, 10:08 AM   #40
jamesm
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Drives: 2013 FR-S
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 2,929
Thanks: 1,166
Thanked 2,293 Times in 1,180 Posts
Mentioned: 313 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by regal View Post
Wow I won't argue with you but you're basically saying the twin screw alternative is not even road worthy. Guess I'll hold off on FI for a while longer.
i'm with dezoris on this one. selling an aftermarket blower to people in florida and arizona etc with no intercooler and no provision for an iat is just stupid. they should've just waited and done it right, but they were under pressure to get it out the door.

typically i'd never recommend a centrifugal s/c for any application, i view them as an unnecessary compromise, but in this case it's a no-brainer. if you absolutely must go s/c the vortech is the way to go. the innovate kit just doesn't offer much in terms of power out of the box or breathing room, and it seems rushed to market, missing key pieces that need to be there (ic and iat).

if you drive an innovate car, there's a real good chance someone with an n/a tune on e85 could outrun you in a straight line. you won't have that in a vortech car. isn't that the whole point of fi?

190-220whp doesn't make for a very fast 86.
jamesm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2013, 10:29 AM   #41
BlueDubbinTDI
Senior Member
 
BlueDubbinTDI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Drives: 2013 FR-S, 2012 MCS
Location: Jax, FL
Posts: 1,975
Thanks: 943
Thanked 570 Times in 356 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I don't mean to thread jack (this is an EXCELLENT insight into SCing and is greatly appreciated btw) but has anyone made such an in-depth review on a particular turbo setup?
BlueDubbinTDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2013, 12:09 PM   #42
regal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: Scion FR-S/Toyota Yaris
Location: PA
Posts: 1,438
Thanks: 21
Thanked 316 Times in 232 Posts
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesm View Post
i'm with dezoris on this one. selling an aftermarket blower to people in florida and arizona etc with no intercooler and no provision for an iat is just stupid. they should've just waited and done it right, but they were under pressure to get it out the door.

typically i'd never recommend a centrifugal s/c for any application, i view them as an unnecessary compromise, but in this case it's a no-brainer. if you absolutely must go s/c the vortech is the way to go. the innovate kit just doesn't offer much in terms of power out of the box or breathing room, and it seems rushed to market, missing key pieces that need to be there (ic and iat).

if you drive an innovate car, there's a real good chance someone with an n/a tune on e85 could outrun you in a straight line. you won't have that in a vortech car. isn't that the whole point of fi?

190-220whp doesn't make for a very fast 86.

I agree except the last sentence , Dezoris's setup is 220hp. To me this is plenty for the street, a bit faster than a stock S2k.

I also have always considered a centr. supercharger a compromise as OEM's never use them, but sounds like vortech has the old issues ironed out.
__________________
2013 FRS Argento Silver 6MT

Mods:
Clear fender side lights
Tactrix ZA1JB01C 2014 Calib
regal is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Sad Truth | Vortech Autocross Review Video Part 3 Dezoris Forced Induction 19 07-24-2013 04:18 PM
Robispec on track testing for BORLA exhaust robispec Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting 21 01-25-2013 10:25 AM
Scion FRS track testing en espaņol :) ESBjiujitsu FR-S & 86 Photos, Videos, Wallpapers, Gallery Forum 5 05-11-2012 01:06 PM
Falken's '09 Formula D Finale video Axel Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions 0 02-04-2010 06:17 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.