Adjustable shocks+ springs vs Coilovers

[Memphis]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Nothing yet.

Koni will probably first. Bilstein will have something eventually.

- Andrew

Whats your view on the eibach sportlines or Teins that lower 1.4 inches? How do you feel they will do with a set of KONI adjustable shocks?

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by gmookher

sorry if its posted what are the rastes on the yellows?

250 lbs/in front and rear.
20mm drop front and rear.

Much firmer than everyone else up front. This was done because the front and rear of the car react differently to changes in spring rates and drops.

Instead of just increasing the spring rates by 10% front and rear, we did something different. The front needs an increase in roll resistance more than the rear does because the roll center of the front drops at a different rate than the rear when you lower the car AND the front has a different dynamic camber curve than the rear. A bigger increase up front meant better turn-in and things stay happy with the suspension loaded up in a corner with more grip. And it's easy to drive since you can put power down through the rears easily, especially with the stock rear diff. And with the mild drop plus our firmer front rates, you're not hitting our shortened bumpstops like the other companies soft fronts with bigger drops.

- Andrew

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by nightfire

How are the wear rates with the stock shocks? The extra compression from the lower springs would increase shock wear I assume? A lot of people on the forums seem to be just watching and waiting to see how long they last

Myles daily drove our springs for months with no change in the damping characteristics of the stock shocks. They have a lot of head room surprisingly. We could have gone firmer actually but there was no need to for the RCE Yellows. We were very happy with where we were at in terms of balance, grip, durability, and ride quality.

Bigger drop springs that ride the bumpstops will likely have issues. The spring rate of the bumpstops spikes very rapidly and many of the springs out there are very bumpstop active...

- Andrew

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Memphis

Whats your view on the eibach sportlines or Teins that lower 1.4 inches? How do you feel they will do with a set of KONI adjustable shocks?

1.4 inches is too much from a function point of view. EDIT: I mean with lowering springs.

It'll be better with Konis but still not enough travel left at that point. Doesn't matter how good the damping is if you cut your available bump travel down by more than half.

If form is what someone is after then they may do the trick but 1.4 inches is making sacrifices in terms of driving the car.

- Andrew

[Memphis]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

1.4 inches is too much from a function point of view.

It'll be better with Konis but still not enough travel left at that point. Doesn't matter how good the damping is if you cut your available bump travel down by more than half.

If form is what someone is after then they may do the trick but 1.4 inches is making sacrifices in terms of driving the car.

- Andrew

That is what I thought.

[Touge Factory]

Have you guys run the JRZ's on the shock dyno?

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

1.4 inches is too much from a function point of view.

It'll be better with Konis but still not enough travel left at that point. Doesn't matter how good the damping is if you cut your available bump travel down by more than half.

If form is what someone is after then they may do the trick but 1.4 inches is making sacrifices in terms of driving the car.

- Andrew

[Racecomp Engineering]

Yes.

To clarify, I meant 1.4 inches is too much with lowering springs. It's still a lot with coilovers but you can make it work.

- Andrew

[nightfire]

What is the maximum amount that can be lowered with springs on stock shocks before you start running into trouble? Around 1"?

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Yes.

To clarify, I meant 1.4 inches is too much with lowering springs. It's still a lot with coilovers but you can make it work.

- Andrew

[Phaedrus29]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

250 lbs/in front and rear.
20mm drop front and rear.

Much firmer than everyone else up front. This was done because the front and rear of the car react differently to changes in spring rates and drops.

Instead of just increasing the spring rates by 10% front and rear, we did something different. The front needs an increase in roll resistance more than the rear does because the roll center of the front drops at a different rate than the rear when you lower the car AND the front has a different dynamic camber curve than the rear. A bigger increase up front meant better turn-in and things stay happy with the suspension loaded up in a corner with more grip. And it's easy to drive since you can put power down through the rears easily, especially with the stock rear diff. And with the mild drop plus our firmer front rates, you're not hitting our shortened bumpstops like the other companies soft fronts with bigger drops.

- Andrew

Thanks for this explanation, although I can't say I fully understand it all! But I was a bit confused why other springs such as the Eibach Prokit ones seem to maintain roughly the same front-to-rear spring rate ratio as stock, but your Yellow springs have a very different ratio (1 to 1) from stock.

It kinda SEEMS like with the Yellow springs you just said "Bah, let's just make the front and rear rates the same...it'll be simpler", but I'm sure that's not what it is, and it's good to see some of the reasoning behind the decision.

So in your view, springs like the Eibach ones that drop around 1" and maintain a similar front-to-rear rate ratio as stock aren't getting things right? They aren't appreciating that the roll centers drop at different rates, the dynamic camber curves are different, etc.?

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by nightfire

What is the maximum amount that can be lowered with springs on stock shocks before you start running into trouble? Around 1"?

It depends on the spring rates too...if they're soft like a lot of the springs out there than 1 inch would be my cut off point. That's my opinion.

- Andrew

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Phaedrus29

Thanks for this explanation, although I can't say I fully understand it all! But I was a bit confused why other springs such as the Eibach Prokit ones seem to maintain roughly the same front-to-rear spring rate ratio as stock, but your Yellow springs have a very different ratio (1 to 1) from stock.

It kinda SEEMS like with the Yellow springs you just said "Bah, let's just make the front and rear rates the same...it'll be simpler", but I'm sure that's not what it is, and it's good to see some of the reasoning behind the decision.

So in your view, springs like the Eibach ones that drop around 1" and maintain a similar front-to-rear rate ratio as stock aren't getting things right? They aren't appreciating that the roll centers drop at different rates, the dynamic camber curves are different, etc.?

Noooo not at all. We actually started with a softer front with our initial prototypes and while it felt pretty good, the car just got better and better with more front rate. We tried multiple configurations and did a lot of nerdy stuff too.

I'm not going to say that springs that keep a similar ratio to stock are "doing it wrong" but the way we did things matches our tuning philosophy and hits our design goals. There is more than one way to do things and this is just the way we like best for a sport lowering spring on the standard shocks with good handling, good ride quality, and good looks.

- Andrew

[azburnin]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Noooo not at all. We actually started with a softer front with our initial prototypes and while it felt pretty good, the car just got better and better with more front rate. We tried multiple configurations and did a lot of nerdy stuff too.

I'm not going to say that springs that keep a similar ratio to stock are "doing it wrong" but the way we did things matches our tuning philosophy and hits our design goals. There is more than one way to do things and this is just the way we like best for a sport lowering spring on the standard shocks with good handling, good ride quality, and good looks.

- Andrew

I like the way you do business!

[CyberFormula]

For those of us that do not have the skill to properly adjust correct Rebound or compression....i think it would ruin handling more so than improve on the stock setup.

There isn't alot of choices as far as a good aftermarket damper that is non adjustable. A quick google search shows Bilstein Sport dampers.

There is also the B14 Bistein which is like the B16 except it is non adjustable.

There is also the KW v1, but that is probably considered a not so good coilover considering it is <$1500. Strangely, the european website of KW shows that KW do make springs and sport shocks, but they do not sell them here in the USA. I feel the DDC system is a good thing from KW because of the ease of adjustment from the IPHONE. The driver can really adjust on the spot and feel what that adjustment has done, rather than drive for awhile then stop the car and adjust, and repeat which can be time consuming and labor intensive depending on where the adjustments are. Unfortunately, i can't find this system on any other cars besides European cars.

[stockysnail]

Originally Posted by CyberFormula

For those of us that do not have the skill to properly adjust correct Rebound or compression....i think it would ruin handling more so than improve on the stock setup.

There isn't alot of choices as far as a good aftermarket damper that is non adjustable. A quick google search shows Bilstein Sport dampers.

There is also the B14 Bistein which is like the B16 except it is non adjustable.

There is also the KW v1, but that is probably considered a not so good coilover considering it is <$1500. Strangely, the european website of KW shows that KW do make springs and sport shocks, but they do not sell them here in the USA. I feel the DDC system is a good thing from KW because of the ease of adjustment from the IPHONE. The driver can really adjust on the spot and feel what that adjustment has done, rather than drive for awhile then stop the car and adjust, and repeat which can be time consuming and labor intensive depending on where the adjustments are. Unfortunately, i can't find this system on any other cars besides European cars.

I had the Billstein sports on both my Lotus Elise and VW R32. They were amazing in my opinion. Comfortable to daily drive and provided much better handling, even in a non-adjustable shock/strut. This will be what I look for if I upgrade my BRZs shocks. Coilovers are just too expensive and I don't need to adjust anything as I'm perfectly happy with a fixed ride height (I have Eibach ProKit on stock shocks) and damper/rebound rates.