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Old 02-14-2020, 05:06 PM   #85
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I mean, you also have the EV-1, which I believe nobody actually bought. Just paid to use for a little while before GM decided nobody should have one.
They were a lease only vehicle though so they don't count. The whole car was more an experiment than an actual long term proposition.
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Old 02-14-2020, 05:08 PM   #86
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Perhaps... but then again, what exactly does Toyota lose by cannibalizing the low end of the Supra? It seems like the real loser would be BMW, since they bear the brunt of both manufacturing and engineering for the Supra.

IMHO Toyota doesn't really care if BMW recoups its costs or not, and in this type of arrangement there is typically not a lot of profit for the company that rebrands another company's product in the low end cars anyway. BMW is not selling this car to Toyota at cost...

If the next generation truly is based on Toyota's TNA then they might actually make more money on a highly optioned GR86 than a base Supra.

Pure speculation on my part...
I have no idea what Toyota's profit margins are on the Supra and 86, but I would bet they're significantly higher on a $50,000 car than a $30,000 one. Even if the profit percentages are similar for both (since they're each bought from someone else, BMW and Subaru respectively), there's an element of the fixed cost to build the car. Such as, it might cost $20,000 to build a $30,000 car, and perhaps $30,000 to build a $50,000 car. So from a purely financial perspective, they probably make a lot more on each Supra sold than an 86.

So, just like Porsche with the 911 and Cayman, Toyota won't want to risk losing a Supra sale to an 86 if buyers see them as too close. Toyota is a completely financially driven company, and will always do whatever makes them the most money.

As an aside, way back in 1990 I interviewed for a job in new product planning with Toyota (in California). Everyone I met with proudly pointed out to me that they were not car enthusiasts, they were strictly business people. They told me about the decision-making process, how there was a 'right way', a 'wrong way', and the 'Toyota way' of doing things, and everyone there must always do things the Toyota way, which meant strictly according to objective financial metrics.

I didn't get the job. The reason they gave me was they were concerned that I was 'too much of a gear head', and that I would let passion and emotion get in the way of making strictly financially-based decisions the Toyota way. Imagine that, a car company not wanting to hire someone because they liked cars too much.

This approach clearly works for Toyota, as they are the largest and arguably most successful car company in the world. But it doesn't always result in the kind of cars enthusiasts want.
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Old 02-14-2020, 05:20 PM   #87
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I have no idea what Toyota's profit margins are on the Supra and 86, but I would bet they're significantly higher on a $50,000 car than a $30,000 one. Even if the profit percentages are similar for both (since they're each bought from someone else, BMW and Subaru respectively), there's an element of the fixed cost to build the car. Such as, it might cost $20,000 to build a $30,000 car, and perhaps $30,000 to build a $50,000 car. So from a purely financial perspective, they probably make a lot more on each Supra sold than an 86.

So, just like Porsche with the 911 and Cayman, Toyota won't want to risk losing a Supra sale to an 86 if buyers see them as too close. Toyota is a completely financially driven company, and will always do whatever makes them the most money.

As an aside, way back in 1990 I interviewed for a job in new product planning with Toyota (in California). Everyone I met with proudly pointed out to me that they were not car enthusiasts, they were strictly business people. They told me about the decision-making process, how there was a 'right way', a 'wrong way', and the 'Toyota way' of doing things, and everyone there must always do things the Toyota way, which meant strictly according to objective financial metrics.

I didn't get the job. The reason they gave me was they were concerned that I was 'too much of a gear head', and that I would let passion and emotion get in the way of making strictly financially-based decisions the Toyota way. Imagine that, a car company not wanting to hire someone because they liked cars too much.

This approach clearly works for Toyota, as they are the largest and arguably most successful car company in the world. But it doesn't always result in the kind of cars enthusiasts want.
The average profit margin on new cars is 1-2% regardless of sale price. The companies make so much money through volume not margin.
I doubt that either of these models even make the 1% mark. They are not intended to be profit makers. Never were. Their value is in the attention they bring to the brand.
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Old 02-14-2020, 05:42 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
They were a lease only vehicle though so they don't count. The whole car was more an experiment than an actual long term proposition.
Here is a shell for sale. Wonder how many survived?

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?f...tofT1YaqHf-LWU
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Old 02-14-2020, 06:51 PM   #89
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Here is a shell for sale. Wonder how many survived?

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?f...tofT1YaqHf-LWU
I know there was one said to be in a garage in Atlanta someplace. Saw it in a Youtube about abandoned tech at some point.

Edit: That was easy https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...parking-garage
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Old 02-14-2020, 06:53 PM   #90
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I got an email from Toyota trying to sell me one.
I got the same one.
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Old 02-14-2020, 09:23 PM   #91
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I know there was one said to be in a garage in Atlanta someplace. Saw it in a Youtube about abandoned tech at some point.

Edit: That was easy https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...parking-garage
some of the articles on that say it's at the university parking garage. a bunch of the ev1's were donated to universities for further education, to be scrapped once the universities were done with them though.
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Old 02-14-2020, 09:26 PM   #92
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some of the articles on that say it's at the university parking garage. a bunch of the ev1's were donated to universities for further education, to be scrapped once the universities were done with them though.
Ya it said 40 in that one. Bet there are at least a couple more hidden away. It also said that the batteries and motors had been stripped out of all of them so not sure what value they even had for the schools.
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Old 02-14-2020, 09:34 PM   #93
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Ya it said 40 in that one. Bet there are at least a couple more hidden away. It also said that the batteries and motors had been stripped out of all of them so not sure what value they even had for the schools.
i vaguely recall that as well. but even with the batteries and motors, almost none of the tech is applicable in any scenario. the only way it makes sense is that it was done for a tax write-off.
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Old 02-15-2020, 12:23 PM   #94
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I know there was one said to be in a garage in Atlanta someplace. Saw it in a Youtube about abandoned tech at some point.
I've seen one in Atlanta on the road about 5 years ago. Unfortunately didn't snap a photo so no proof.
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Old 02-15-2020, 11:26 PM   #95
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Just saw the 2021 in the Blue color at Osaka Automesse. It’s an incredibly beautiful color. Similar to hyper blue but deeper, a bit darker I think, and metallic.

Tbh if I didn’t have a car already I’d totally consider it.
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It sounds to me like the delicate, metallic sounds of piston skirts slapping against the cylinder walls
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Old 02-16-2020, 12:31 AM   #96
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i can't get over how ugly steel-formed ducktail looks. if they had just flattened the back, it'd be a beautiful rear end...
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Old 02-16-2020, 06:00 PM   #97
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Here is a shell for sale. Wonder how many survived?

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?f...tofT1YaqHf-LWU
Several, despite GMs best efforts.

Oddly, there was a crazy crimewave right before leases ended of EV-1 theft.. most of those are sitting in museums now.
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Old 02-17-2020, 07:50 PM   #98
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I fear the 2.0 Supra will be too expensive for the relative performance, especially next to competitors. 255HP is a very conservative tune, that B48 makes over 300HP stock in the new Mini JCW range. They should turn up the wick and stop playing pattycakes.
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