FR-S/BRZ vs. Genesis Coupe

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I disagree. My wife's old 2200 lb. Tercel was much softer sprung (per weight), had crappier tires, was slower, mushier, more oversteery than the Mazda3 we replaced it with. The 3 is superior in every single way from a performance standpoint. But the Tercel felt a LOT more immediate and you could *tell* you were in a much lighter-weight car. Even though the car was very low-performance, there was an element of FUN to it that's lacking in the much heavier 3. Mass does a lot to *deaden* the experience of driving a car.



For dd duty, the means are important to me. The "ends" of getting me around town and to/from work will, for 99.9% of my street usage, be identical anyway. The relatively inferior power/weight of the FR-S will not come into play at all. I'd rather do my DD thing in a smaller, lighter-weight car.

Speaking only for myself, of course.

So it sounds like you might like a first generation Miata better than a FR-S? Because someone who owns one could say the very same thing that you have been saying about heavier cars than the FR-S. By your logic the Miata should be way more fun.

[ZDan]

I don't expect the FR-S to be more "fun" than an NA Miata. I do want a fixed roof and +2 seating, though.

Every car is a compromise, no car is ideal. And of course it's not strictly about weight or feeling lightweight even for me, which is why I got an S2000 rather than a Miata despite the rather huge weight difference. If it was *only* about mass, I'd have been in an NA Miata for years now, and would probably be swapping to an Elise about now.

[quik1987]

has anyone compared mpg?

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by quik1987

has anyone compared mpg?

We haven't heard the official mpg for the BRZ/FRS yet. The GC is:


• 3.8-liter V6 engine (rating with premium fuel)
• 18 city/28 highway – 8-speed A/T
• 18 city/27 highway – 6-speed M/T

• 2.0-liter 4-cylinder turbocharged engine (rating with premium fuel)
• 20 city/31 highway – 8-speed A/T
• 21 city/30 highway – 6-speed M/T

Also remember the GC is able to run on regular fuel. I think the 2.0T on regular drops down to 260hp/260tq from 274hp/275tq.

[serialk11r]

8 speed A/T, sounds like the cruising gear will be pretty good. So if the Genesis is only getting 31 EPA highway, that's actually pretty bad.

FRS should be several mpgs higher in the city due to less weight and no turbo. On the highway the advantage (if any) will be smaller, although at part load that extra bit of compression helps a lot. I'm also pretty sure the FRS can run on regular if you don't floor it, based on what I know about VVTi programming. Alternatively, if there's access to the VVTi control in the ECU, you can easily limit the torque and rpm and run regular with no efficiency penalty (actually EGR might mess some things up, but that can be dialed out sorta).

I'm predicting 23/33 AT, 24/32 MT. Good driving should get it over 30 average, highway can be over 40 if you pulse and glide.

[vq37]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Light weight is a BIG FACTOR for every day usage driving fun as well, *NOT* just track usage. I DD an S2000, LOVE it even tooling around at 1-3 tenths. Lighter-weight smaller cars are just inherently more fun, ALL the time, not only when pushing the limits.

Mass FTMFL...

Light weight is nice, but the obsession about it is really getting out of hand in this place. The Nissan GTR is 3900+ lbs, the 911 turbo is 3500 lbs despite being a 2 seater. Do you really think they make boring daily drivers? Even the ZR1 is 3329 lbs, I guess the FR-S/BRZ must be much more fun than that too because weight is pretty much everything isn't it?

The GC for being a 2+2 GT car is actually fairly light compared to its competition. Most people who want a comfortable fun daily driver are gonna have to take a 3000+ lbs car or risk losing a lot of features/comforts and practicality. If having a single purpose track car is fine for you, then maybe FR-S/BRZ will work, and it might work for me too if its priced low enough.

Despite the lower weight, the FRS/BRZ will be a tough sell if its priced above 25k, most people will just see the 348 HP 3.8 (the 2.0T) R-SPEC Genesis coupe for near the same price and go with that. A lot more standard features, much nicer interior, a lot better warranty, wider tires, etc. It may seem superficial but I can assure you, that's how most people will think.

The FRS/BRZ is lighter, probably has better road feel, likely more balanced and might feel better through the corners, and while that's an important advantage, it just isn't enough unless its priced noticeable lower because the GC wins at everything else. You can't really even fix the problem of low torque and HP on the FRS/BRZ due to the high compression ratio, so I doubt it would make a good tuner/turbo car either.

[vq37]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

We haven't heard the official mpg for the BRZ/FRS yet. The GC is:


• 3.8-liter V6 engine (rating with premium fuel)
• 18 city/28 highway – 8-speed A/T
• 18 city/27 highway – 6-speed M/T

• 2.0-liter 4-cylinder turbocharged engine (rating with premium fuel)
• 20 city/31 highway – 8-speed A/T
• 21 city/30 highway – 6-speed M/T

Also remember the GC is able to run on regular fuel. I think the 2.0T on regular drops down to 260hp/260tq from 274hp/275tq.

Though the 3.8 only drops down to 344hp/292ft-lbs on regular. The turbo takes the much bigger hit on regular.

[Want.FR-S]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

8 speed A/T, sounds like the cruising gear will be pretty good. So if the Genesis is only getting 31 EPA highway, that's actually pretty bad.

FRS should be several mpgs higher in the city due to less weight and no turbo. On the highway the advantage (if any) will be smaller, although at part load that extra bit of compression helps a lot. I'm also pretty sure the FRS can run on regular if you don't floor it, based on what I know about VVTi programming. Alternatively, if there's access to the VVTi control in the ECU, you can easily limit the torque and rpm and run regular with no efficiency penalty (actually EGR might mess some things up, but that can be dialed out sorta).

Hmmm.. correct me if I am wrong. I do not think this FA20 has VVTi implemented. If that is the case, how can you be assure that this engine can run on regular. Can you elaborate on that?

[cassidy0998]

Originally Posted by vq37

Light weight is nice, but the obsession about it is really getting out of hand in this place. The Nissan GTR is 3900+ lbs, the 911 turbo is 3500 lbs despite being a 2 seater. Do you really think they make boring daily drivers? Even the ZR1 is 3329 lbs, I guess the FR-S/BRZ must be much more fun than that too because weight is pretty much everything isn't it?

The GC for being a 2+2 GT car is actually fairly light compared to its competition. Most people who want a comfortable fun daily driver are gonna have to take a 3000+ lbs car or risk losing a lot of features/comforts and practicality. If having a single purpose track car is fine for you, then maybe FR-S/BRZ will work, and it might work for me too if its priced low enough.

Despite the lower weight, the FRS/BRZ will be a tough sell if its priced above 25k, most people will just see the 348 HP 3.8 (the 2.0T) R-SPEC Genesis coupe for near the same price and go with that. A lot more standard features, much nicer interior, a lot better warranty, wider tires, etc. It may seem superficial but I can assure you, that's how most people will think.

The FRS/BRZ is lighter, probably has better road feel, likely more balanced and might feel better through the corners, and while that's an important advantage, it just isn't enough unless its priced noticeable lower because the GC wins at everything else. You can't really even fix the problem of low torque and HP on the FRS/BRZ due to the high compression ratio, so I doubt it would make a good tuner/turbo car either.

Agreed, I like your style.

[Dark]

Originally Posted by Want.FR-S

Hmmm.. correct me if I am wrong. I do not think this FA20 has VVTi implemented. If that is the case, how can you be assure that this engine can run on regular. Can you elaborate on that?

I sometimes run my IS250 on regular gas( when the gas station I go in runs out of premium), and it has D4S. When you run regular, power will be downgraded.

[Exage]

Originally Posted by Want.FR-S

Hmmm.. correct me if I am wrong. I do not think this FA20 has VVTi implemented. If that is the case, how can you be assure that this engine can run on regular. Can you elaborate on that?

???

Of course it has variable valve timing implemented. Dual AVCS is most likely.

However I can't go 100% on the fact that it will have ability to run on regular. I can speculate that it will have the ability (makes sense with fuel prices today) with direct injection. I certainly don't think that 200hp crank rating is on regular though...

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by vq37

Light weight is nice, but the obsession about it is really getting out of hand in this place. The Nissan GTR is 3900+ lbs, the 911 turbo is 3500 lbs despite being a 2 seater. Do you really think they make boring daily drivers? Even the ZR1 is 3329 lbs, I guess the FR-S/BRZ must be much more fun than that too because weight is pretty much everything isn't it?

The GC for being a 2+2 GT car is actually fairly light compared to its competition. Most people who want a comfortable fun daily driver are gonna have to take a 3000+ lbs car or risk losing a lot of features/comforts and practicality. If having a single purpose track car is fine for you, then maybe FR-S/BRZ will work, and it might work for me too if its priced low enough.

Despite the lower weight, the FRS/BRZ will be a tough sell if its priced above 25k, most people will just see the 348 HP 3.8 (the 2.0T) R-SPEC Genesis coupe for near the same price and go with that. A lot more standard features, much nicer interior, a lot better warranty, wider tires, etc. It may seem superficial but I can assure you, that's how most people will think.

The FRS/BRZ is lighter, probably has better road feel, likely more balanced and might feel better through the corners, and while that's an important advantage, it just isn't enough unless its priced noticeable lower because the GC wins at everything else. You can't really even fix the problem of low torque and HP on the FRS/BRZ due to the high compression ratio, so I doubt it would make a good tuner/turbo car either.

That raises this question.
Does this car REALLY compete with the Genesis coupe? or is it more in line with compact 2 doors like a Civic Si or a Scion tC?

As far as i can tell, the Genesis coupe, 370Z, RX8, G35, Altima coupe and maybe even the ponycars all compete against each other. They're all larger, and possibly more luxurious. No one puts a Civic SI or Scion tC against those cars because they dont compete with each other even though there imay be price overlap.

the BRZ/FRS/86 triplets seem like its a rung lower than these other luxo coupes the more i think about it. (slotted in a spot between the sport compacts and the RWD coupes)

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

That raises this question.
Does this car REALLY compete with the Genesis coupe? or is it more in line with compact 2 doors like a Civic Si or a Scion tC?

As far as i can tell, the Genesis coupe, 370Z, RX8, G35, Altima coupe and maybe even the ponycars all compete against each other. They're all larger, and possibly more luxurious. No one puts a Civic SI or Scion tC against those cars because they dont compete with each other even though there imay be price overlap.

the BRZ/FRS/86 triplets seem like its a rung lower than these other luxo coupes the more i think about it. (slotted in a spot between the sport compacts and the RWD coupes)

AutoX/tracking class is different than the average consumer who buys primarily based on price/affordability.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Exage

???

Of course it has variable valve timing implemented. Dual AVCS is most likely.

However I can't go 100% on the fact that it will have ability to run on regular. I can speculate that it will have the ability (makes sense with fuel prices today) with direct injection. I certainly don't think that 200hp crank rating is on regular though...

Yea. I don't think it will be able to run regular from the factory, it'll need a tune. However the dual VVTi makes running on regular easier, you just have to fiddle with the valves rather than mess the timing up. The way they improve volumetric efficiency at low rpm is advance the intake a lot, if you retard the cam it will lose volumetric efficiency AND reduce internal EGR, which greatly reduces the charge temperature, so 87 should be pretty safe. I think the steady torque increase from idle to 3000rpm is attributed to them running the maximum possible valve overlap and EGR.

You can put regular in without a tune and stay off the throttle but accidentally jab it too hard and the engine will knock and it'll all go downhill. An idea I was thinking of is a "foot limiter" aka plastic block behind the gas pedal that makes you keep out of it

And of course you will lose some torque throughout the rev range.