Safety question around harnesses

[chris.mutchler34]

I have zero track experience and will be attending my first HPDE event at Sonoma in September. As I prep the car for the first outing, the concern around harnesses is still bothering me.

The harness bar for showiness seemed like a novel idea, but the more I read about it, the less I am comfortable with it from a safety perspective. However, I also don't like the idea of relying merely on the factory 3-point harnesses. If you don't have a harness bar (or roll cage), is there a safe way to anchor a 4-point harness system in the car with the stock seats?

The car is not a daily driver, but it will be driven on the street more than the track.

I've searched this and other forums, but haven't found anything reliable. If you know, have a link or pictures of how I can do this, I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

[cjd]

Most 4-point setups would worry me far more than a proper harness bar on a track. Scrhroth makes one that fits the car without a harness bar (the Rallye 3) properly, and their ASM is the only way I'd even consider a 4-point... and I'm not sure I would on a track.

Your comfort level (and that of instructors if you're there) may vary. Don't even think about something that's not at least tested to handle submarining properly.

[TRAKRAVN]

Remember the car is an engineered safety system. You will be fine using the stock belts with the OEM setup.

I complete agree with CJD, I have tracked with the Rallye 3 and I prefer the OEM belts or a COMPLETE track safety system. Which is 5-6 point harness, Proper seats with submarine port, a roll bar with a proper harness angles and a HANs device. The Rallye 3 belt would end up riding up my abdomen and not holding me firmly in the seat. Under braking you could feel the belts riding up even higher. I have found better results using a CG-Lock.

If you are worried about your safety in the car just wear a suit and proper helmet. I've driven with racing seats on the street and to be honest they are designed to be used with a helmet. If someone rear ends you, your head is heading (pun intended) straight for the hard fiberglass or carbon of the seat.

[Icecreamtruk]

I've been tracking the car for a couple of years now and this year in particular I'm using semi-slick tires. My seats are stock and I use the stock belts. If they can hold a 230lbs guy like me in place during cornering well over 1g, they can hold pretty much anything. Worry more about your brakes and tires than your seat, stock seat is fine unless you have a roll cage.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by chris.mutchler34

I have zero track experience and will be attending my first HPDE event at Sonoma in September.



However, I also don't like the idea of relying merely on the factory 3-point harnesses.

So what makes you uncomfortable about the factory 3-point? Are you too big? Do you not have upper body strength? Have you been in an accident where the factory 3-point has failed.

4-point harnesses are cool but if you are seriously thinking a 4-point (without a mechanism for anti-submarining) is safer than a 3-point, you've got your facts backwards.

You need minimum 5-point, not a 4 if you want to run a harness, just for starters. And for 95% of guys who track out there, the factory 3-point is plenty good for what you will be doing. I've personally had zero issues with factory belts at the track.

-alex

[wparsons]

Stay away from 4 points, especially if it's your first track event. There's only a handful that are safe (DOT approved, with ASM). Any 4 points without ASM can hold you too upright in a roll and the roof could crush your spine (unlikely, but possible). They also won't hold you from sliding under the belt if it rides up too high.

Short version, don't change belts without a roll bar or full cage, and get an FIA approved seat at the same time.

You're far safer with the stock belts than a hacked together system.

[chris.mutchler34]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Stay away from 4 points, especially if it's your first track event. There's only a handful that are safe (DOT approved, with ASM). Any 4 points without ASM can hold you too upright in a roll and the roof could crush your spine (unlikely, but possible). They also won't hold you from sliding under the belt if it rides up too high.

Short version, don't change belts without a roll bar or full cage, and get an FIA approved seat at the same time.

You're far safer with the stock belts than a hacked together system.

This is the conclusion I've come to. Thank you everyone who responded for the suggestions and information. I've decided that I've been overthinking the whole situation.

[kch]

Originally Posted by chris.mutchler34

This is the conclusion I've come to. Thank you everyone who responded for the suggestions and information. I've decided that I've been overthinking the whole situation.

For an alternative point of view, I (along with a couple HPDE instructors I know of) run a harness bar with ASM 4-points and stock seats. I enjoy the extra stability I have in my seat--I can focus on driving, rather than trying to brace myself against the center console.

I realize a full safety system would be better. I realize a 4-point ASM harness is a compromise. But it's a compromise I'm willing to make for now.

Edit: I just saw that this is your first event. Don't worry about harnesses for now. If anything, look into something like the CGLock. https://www.amazon.com/Lock-Performa.../dp/B0010E7OB8

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by chris.mutchler34

I have zero track experience and will be attending my first HPDE event at Sonoma in September. As I prep the car for the first outing, the concern around harnesses is still bothering me.

The harness bar for showiness seemed like a novel idea, but the more I read about it, the less I am comfortable with it from a safety perspective. However, I also don't like the idea of relying merely on the factory 3-point harnesses. If you don't have a harness bar (or roll cage), is there a safe way to anchor a 4-point harness system in the car with the stock seats?

The car is not a daily driver, but it will be driven on the street more than the track.

I've searched this and other forums, but haven't found anything reliable. If you know, have a link or pictures of how I can do this, I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

I recommend you stick to your OEM safety equipment.

Safety equipment is an "all or nothing", and I do not recommend using a harness unless you also have a cage.

[janialambar]

Everyone enjoy your ride safely.

[Locust]

As others have said in here if you aren't going to go with a full safety setup you should not alter any of it. Adding harnesses without, at minimum, a roll bar will actually make you less safe. The 3-point OEM seatbelts in cars are designed to allow you to lean to the side in a rollover accident to prevent the roof from crushing you to death. If you add a harness with no roll bar and get into a significant rollover accident your body has nowhere to go and the roof can and will crush you. Even a slight compression of the roof if your helmet doesn't have a ton of clearance can cause significant injuries.

We had a local guy instructing at autocross who was slightly too tall for a student's car and when they hit a bump he hit the ceiling with his head and ended up with an injury. That's just from a bump in OEM belts... it's a lot worse when the car is upside down and all the weight is pushing on you.

And a 4-point belt is like wearing assless pants with no underwear. You've got yourself 90% covered but you can still slip out the bottom.

[Open Loop]

I recommend considering a Simpson Hybrid S head and neck restraint (the one designed to work with three point belts) before changing the belts in your car at this point.

[CrowsFeast]

I'm going to be the counterpoint to many of the posts here.

First; in event of a rollover the real danger is 1 piece bucket seats. They don't collapse at the pivot point the way OEM seats would because they don't have a pivot point. If your harness has ASM then it's really no more dangerous in a rollover than the factory 3 point.

On to 4 point harnesses. My previous car had a Schroth Quick Fit Pro installed. It's their DOT approved 4 point with ASM which mounts to the front and rear seat factory locations (and doesn't require the removal of the 3 point). I drove with it once on the street and realized that it just wasn't practical so I unclipped it from the front 2 locations (factory seat belt clip and the clip you install on the outside lower mount) fed it back through the head rest posts, and left it coiled in the rear seat (still connected to the rear locations). When I got to the track it took me 2 minutes to reinstall and it really held me in place. If you've got a proper seating position, aren't tightening the lower belt on top of your gut, and are getting it as tight as it should be, then I just don't see it ever riding up. Sadly the belt clips don't fit in the rear of the BRZ or I'd be running it again.

AAaaannnnd now I remember you have zero previous track experience... Well the points are still valid but when you're just starting out I recommend adjusting your seat, then backing it up on the sliders, locking the belt as tight as you can go, then pulling the seat forwards snugly into the belt.

Unfortunately these cars don't have a roller adjustment for the seat back or else I would recommend adjusting the seat, then rolling the back down, locking the belt, and rolling it forward into the belt. It's a much better method but doesn't work here.