BMW talk

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Take the 86 twins. Replace the swoopy/fastback "coupe" styling with upright "sedan" styling, and you have a proper modern 2002/E30, at less than 2800 lb.

I love the idea. Even more the hatcback designed by ichitaka05. You might have seen it. But even with decent headroom it would be quite cramped, but much more usable.
Its been some time since I was in the back of an E30, but I can not remember having zero space on top of my shoes and having to take them of my shoes to get something that resembled comfort. I think the E30 generally was more spacious in the back. Some E30 owners might have a more accurate description. I cant comment on the 2002. Never been in one, love the looks.
Either way, I think the GT86 would have to be a couple of more cm longer as well.

As for weight. The F21 118I is 1370kg, EU weight. If my numbers are right. That includes a driver at 75kg and 90% full tank.
So the car is 1295kg with a lot of fuel. Take out 25liters of fuel and you get 1270kg. Which equals:2800 pounds
If the car should be noticeably lighter it would have the become less premium, throw of safety equipment or start getting a lot of aluminium/CF parts..
That would not make it competitive against rivals in terms of.. anything..
It could maybe get more special made lighter parts, instead of sharing lots of stuff with the 3-series drivetrain, but that would ruin the cost/cheap part.

Originally Posted by ZDan

Most people assume that, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. In particular, I think they would have sold MORE 1- and 3-series if they'd made the 1-series a lot smaller/simpler/cheaper/lighter-weight. Instead, it's a barely smaller/lighter version of the Buick-size/weight 3-series.

The E81/87 (1.gen hatcback) were criticed for not having enough back seat space. I thought it was fine. But the press criticized it. And it went through the classical (bigger and better procedure). Why people had to complain about the space inside the 1.gen 1-series instead of just buying a 3-series I don't get. (okay, main competitors stuff.. but still)
Comparing 1-series (1.gen) against its FWD rivals it was heavier, less practical, and more cramped. Especially in the back. Mainly due to its RWD layout.

2.gen fixed the space issue and got larger, while shedding off weight. Its getting criticized a little for space. BMW will probably (/sadly)"fix" that with FWD in the future. That will also fix weight and efficiency...

Not sure if you are familiar with the EU market. But 7. gen VW Golf is not considered a premium car. Its the best selling car in Europe and have been for near 30 years, and its interior is almost in the same league as the "Premium interior" in the 1-series.. It probably exceeds 1.gen 1-series.
Some interior snobs could still complain about the new F20/21 1-series interior being a bit cheap compared BMWs and Audis higher up in their lines, even if its is highly improved.
I don't think BMW could have pulled out the "cheaper" or smaller "card" and had the success they are having with the 1-series.
Lighter? I specified above, but the new car with a small engine is reasonable light. Again, remove its comforts and it would not weigh that much more compared to the 86. But it would have 100% better seat space in the back.
Of course that will not be the case when you put 240+/320hp torque monsters in them. They also need drivetrain and stopping power for that stuff. Blame your fellow americans for buying large cars, otherwise BMW would probably have sold....
114I
116I
118I
125I
116D
118D
120D
125D
...in the states as well.

Reality over here is that a BMW 114I is not that much more in base price compared to a VW Golf with equivalent engine. Its just easier to make it more expensive with "premium" options..
I believe the price and badge of a BMW were a lot more premium than a VW car in the 80s. Today, the prices and differences are not that high when comparing "similar" models. Many "normal cars" have become quite premium.

The sales numbers of the new 1-series just shows that BMW knows how to make cars for the public. Even if most online people seem to criticize it looks it gets great sales numbers.
Personally I have some issues with it, but overall its a great car.

Originally Posted by ZDan

We'll see, but I have next to no hope for BMW building true minimalist enthusiast machines going forward. The company that built the 2002 and E30, and also reasonable size/weight midsized E28 as well, is apparently gone forever

M2 Coupe CSL.. *fingers crossed* Altough personally I would like to have modern 2-series inspired by the E30is. M-cars gets way too much taxes in Norway. But everything depreciates in the future so its nice to have options to dream about.

As for the company that built reasonable size/weight cars.. it is still there... Cars have just changed..
BMW still use the same recipe they used when making the E30s.
-Typical family car sized car, check
-RWD, check
-Sporty handling, check
-Great engines, check
-More premium compared to average cars, check

Originally Posted by ZDan

German Buicks.

I dont know your definition of German Buicks. But you should watch this clip from Top Gear latest DVD.

18.15 BMW M3
22.25 BMW M5 vs old buick (Gymkhana)

M3 is not a buick in my eyes. If the M5 is a German Buick then I would not mind having a German Buick in my garage..

___
I do think BMW will make the same "mistake" and make the 2-series Coupe heavier than the hatchback once again.. hope im wrong.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by RaceR

As for the company that built reasonable size/weight cars.. it is still there... Cars have just changed..
BMW still use the same recipe they used when making the E30s.
-Typical family car sized car, check

The E30 was significantly smaller and lighter-weight than a "Typical family car sized car"! Latest 3-series, definitely "family car" size and weight...

-RWD, check

However, LONG gone are the days when you could equip the lowliest model (318i in the states) with a limited slip diff. Now you *have* to have an "M" car to get what I consider a *requirement* for any rwd car with sporting pretensions. And on top of that, instead of trying to give us a legitimately small and lightweight rwd platform, they're going fwd instead!

-Sporty handling, check

Excellent slalom and skidpad numbers, sure. But the additional size and mass subtract tremendously from the fun of the driving experience.

-Great engines, check

I'd like the cars a lot better if a 2.0 liter N/A four would be a sufficient powerplant.

-More premium compared to average cars, check

This part remains: they're definitely priced for the more affluent. Regardless of the $$$, I'd much rather they made smaller/simpler/lighter cars, which would require less powerful engines, smaller brakes, smaller wheels, smaller tires.

This is NOT the same company that gave us the 2002 and the E30 M3... This is a purveyor of oversized/overwrought/overweight luxury cars with a few minor nods to "sportiness".

M3 is not a buick in my eyes.

OK, Camaro then. It weighs as much as the newer, massive, bricklike Camaro. The E30 M3 weighed about 1000 lb. less! Huge strides made by BMW, in exactly the wrong direction

If the M5 is a German Buick then I would not mind having a German Buick in my garage..

I wouldn't mind it, but I'd rather have a proper sports sedan than a massive luxobarge. Honestly, I think the E28 M5 is a cooler car (though obviously a lot slower in any contest). Just like I think the E30 M3 is a cooler car than the current 3700+ lb. monstrosity.

The current BMW lineup is all but irrelevant to me. I could easily afford one, but I'd honestly rather have an FR-S or BRZ. BMW could learn a lot from these cars...

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by ZDan

The E30 was significantly smaller and lighter-weight than a "Typical family car sized car"! Latest 3-series, definitely "family car" size and weight...
However, LONG gone are the days when you could equip the lowliest model (318i in the states) with a limited slip diff. Now you *have* to have an "M" car to get what I consider a *requirement* for any rwd car with sporting pretensions. And on top of that, instead of trying to give us a legitimately small and lightweight rwd platform, they're going fwd instead!

Excellent slalom and skidpad numbers, sure. But the additional size and mass subtract tremendously from the fun of the driving experience.

I'd like the cars a lot better if a 2.0 liter N/A four would be a sufficient powerplant.

This part remains: they're definitely priced for the more affluent. Regardless of the $$$, I'd much rather they made smaller/simpler/lighter cars, which would require less powerful engines, smaller brakes, smaller wheels, smaller tires.

This is NOT the same company that gave us the 2002 and the E30 M3... This is a purveyor of oversized/overwrought/overweight luxury cars with a few minor nods to "sportiness".

OK, Camaro then. It weighs as much as the newer, massive, bricklike Camaro. The E30 M3 weighed about 1000 lb. less! Huge strides made by BMW, in exactly the wrong direction

I wouldn't mind it, but I'd rather have a proper sports sedan than a massive luxobarge. Honestly, I think the E28 M5 is a cooler car (though obviously a lot slower in any contest). Just like I think the E30 M3 is a cooler car than the current 3700+ lb. monstrosity.

The current BMW lineup is all but irrelevant to me. I could easily afford one, but I'd honestly rather have an FR-S or BRZ. BMW could learn a lot from these cars...

I totally agree 110% with what you say. I find my self nodding.. yes, yes.. So true, so right..
For the sake of discussion, I just end up taking the logic/rational way of thinking in stead of writing the stuff you do!

Ill just say one thing about the stuff you said.
yes, you would like the car better if it was a NA 2.0. But it would not be a success, unless they managed to make if much more efficient than the 86. The main market for the 1-series is in Europe. The contingent that aim for engines producing half the amount of CO2 of a typical 2.0L NA engine.
BMW would have shot themselves in the foot by doing that.
The efficient engines are a part of BMWs success over here. All competition basically have turbo engines. They would not have a chance if they went the normal NA route. Its just the way things are in EU. Some countries are worse than others. Im from one of the worst, I know..

Here is proof. Ill show some insanity:
BMW E81 116D (diesel, the work of satan, and a car that is quite "heavy" considering the 1.gen 1-series was not light and diesel engines add to that)
In 2009-2011 those engines had 115hp. But there was also a 90hp version. 90hp BMW in a new 2011 model BMW is something for you US guys to chew on.. :P
Anyway.. Those engines are based on the same 2l diesel engine that sits in the more powerful diesel versions.
A used car from 2010/2011 with very low milage are half the price of a GT86 in Norway. A little flash device from ESS-tuning. BOM! 180hp/420NM torque
Add Quaife LSD. Yes, these guys have to almost every BMW.
Add stiffer rear swaybar and some adjustable dampers. KW V3?
Add lightweight brakes..
Result: FUN new low millage toy at a reasonable price.

Id much rather do that on F20/F21 114I which have a much better chassis, and a petrol engine. But there are issues with the new BMWs.
1- Have not come across a way to get engine mapping into sport mode when DSC off. Default is comfort, which is not responsive at all.
2- No chip to make it into a more powerful 118I. Yes, I could just buy the 118I and maybe do a little tuning if desirable.
3-E-LSD are activated when DSC is off. It would probably not interfer with when a proper locking diff are installed, but Id feel better not running into the risk.

A dream OEM car would probably be more of hardcore "baby" m-car with around 230hp, and 4 usable seats (not much larger than the 86) Due to taxes, I would have chosen turbo and minimzed lag as much as possible. 1.5l high reving 3-cylinder engine (or some light weight KERS hybrid stuff that the GT86 might get). Give me a OS-giken style diff with 100% locking capacity too. It could be the baby M2 CSL, just like the E30 318is was the baby "m" car..
Fat "proper M-cars" could have more "sophisticated" stuff..

The only reason why 3-series are so fat is because of its size and engine, and not focusing enough on weight from the start.
F21 M135I weight 290 pounds more than F21 118I.
A performance 118is/218is (CSL) could easily get down to 2700pounds. A 2-series could as well if made right..
There are so many opportunities.

I have also dreamed about a Z2, maybe named Z22. A compact Z-series car with 2+2 layout. That would not mess up the normal BMW lineup.
The car would be a mix of a 218IS CSL and a GT86.

BMW will probably make a Z2 with fwd.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by RaceR

I totally agree 110% with what you say. I find my self nodding.. yes, yes.. So true, so right..

OMGs, I have been agreed with on the internet! This is unprecedented

Ill just say one thing about the stuff you said.
yes, you would like the car better if it was a NA 2.0.
...
The contingent that aim for engines producing half the amount of CO2 of a typical 2.0L NA engine.
...
The efficient engines are a part of BMWs success over here. All competition basically have turbo engines. They would not have a chance if they went the normal NA route. Its just the way things are in EU. Some countries are worse than others. Im from one of the worst, I know..

OK, 1.5 turbo

Here is proof. Ill show some insanity:
BMW E81 116D (diesel, the work of satan, and a car that is quite "heavy" considering the 1.gen 1-series was not light and diesel engines add to that)
In 2009-2011 those engines had 115hp. But there was also a 90hp version. 90hp BMW in a new 2011 model BMW is something for you US guys to chew on.. :P

Yeah, I don't think that'd go over well here in the states...
I'm not a fan of diesels, anyway, though some over here are. Power/weight like you suggest, it just isn't there. But a highish boost 1.5 gasoline engine, could make upwards of 300hp and be quite efficient, no?

Id much rather do that on F20/F21 114I which have a much better chassis, and a petrol engine. But there are issues with the new BMWs.
1- Have not come across a way to get engine mapping into sport mode when DSC off. Default is comfort, which is not responsive at all.

I don't know if I get what "sport mode" is. I want the throttle to open half way when my foot is halfway down, and ALL the way when my foot is all the way down. Really hate the idea of a "sport mode" that just increases throttle opening per foot position, basically only makes it harder to modulate!

Unless this "sport mode" is something else...

2- No chip to make it into a more powerful 118I. Yes, I could just buy the 118I and maybe do a little tuning if desirable.
3-E-LSD are activated when DSC is off. It would probably not interfer with when a proper locking diff are installed, but Id feel better not running into the risk.

I think I'd have to disable any "e-lsd" feature if I had a REAL limited slip.

A dream OEM car would probably be more of hardcore "baby" m-car with around 230hp, and 4 usable seats (not much larger than the 86) Due to taxes, I would have chosen turbo and minimzed lag as much as possible. 1.5l high reving 3-cylinder engine (or some light weight KERS hybrid stuff that the GT86 might get). Give me a OS-giken style diff with 100% locking capacity too. It could be the baby M2 CSL, just like the E30 318is was the baby "m" car..

Sounds great to me! Rather have N/A, but that's ok

The only reason why 3-series are so fat is because of its size and engine, and not focusing enough on weight from the start.
F21 M135I weight 290 pounds more than F21 118I.
A performance 118is/218is (CSL) could easily get down to 2700pounds. A 2-series could as well if made right..
There are so many opportunities.

Don't let me get optimistic, we both know it ain't happening

I have also dreamed about a Z2, maybe named Z22. A compact Z-series car with 2+2 layout. That would not mess up the normal BMW lineup.
The car would be a mix of a 218IS CSL and a GT86.

BMW will probably make a Z2 with fwd.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Yeah, I don't think that'd go over well here in the states...
I'm not a fan of diesels, anyway, though some over here are. Power/weight like you suggest, it just isn't there. But a highish boost 1.5 gasoline engine, could make upwards of 300hp and be quite efficient, no?

Im not a fan of diesel either, but 90hp and low CO2 would equal zero engine taxes in Norway. A little inexpensive chip would give a 116D extreme bang for the buck in terms of power..

Originally Posted by ZDan

I don't know if I get what "sport mode" is. I want the throttle to open half way when my foot is halfway down, and ALL the way when my foot is all the way down. Really hate the idea of a "sport mode" that just increases throttle opening per foot position, basically only makes it harder to modulate!

Unless this "sport mode" is something else...

Cars like the new 1,3,5-series ("F"-code cars) have a button that normaly have these 4 modes:
-Eco Pro
-Comfort
-Sport
-Sport+

This little mode changing button can change the following aspects of the car:
-Engine mapping (engine response, and maybe even a little change in power)
-Throttle pedal response
-Steering response (I think it basically just changes the weight of the steering. But it depend on the options)
-Suspension
-Automatic gearbox

-If you have a car with normal suspension, not adaptive (sport) suspension. It will not change suspension. You can have normal m-sport suspension without any electronic stuff.
-Manual gearbox will not be affected by the electronic button
-Steering, if you go for the normal steering it will not be affected by electronics. Not sure if every country have that option though. There are two "options" you can get on the steering.
So, if the car is made as simple as possible. The little driving mode button will only change engine response and throttle pedal response.

You have a traction control button with two modes:
DTC, press and its into traction mode. Nice for snow and stuff i believe.
No DSC (if you hold the button for 5 sec). Problem is, this is basically comfort mode (with E-diff) and no stability control. Why on earth would they make it go into "comfort mode" when you turn for the DSC compelety off?

-Eco Pro
-Comfort
_____DTC (traction mode, -comfort setting)
-Sport
-Sport+ (same as sport, but with less traction control, you can get a LITTLE sideways
_____NO DSC (sideways fun and do whatever, but with comfort driving dymanics)


So, lets say you want to do some track driving.
Sport+ = Great for going fast, but not a proper track-mode since electronics can interfer if loosing grip. Useless for sideways fun and drifting.
DSC OFF= You can now go sideways and do whatever you want. But not good for the track with sluggish throttle response/engine mapping. AutoX would be useless if you were competing. You would loose acceleration out of every corner..

That is how it is with current cars as far as I know..Im not sure if this is a problem all over the world, nor if the M135I work that way. I know the M135I can adjust some mode stuff that you can not on the normal cars.. So its better, and maybe even it can be adjusted perfect..
Proper M-cars should work fine..

I know there is a ton of stuff that is possible to get reprogrammed with a computer, free software and some OBDII cable. But not sure if anyone have found out that stuff yet.. The cars are still quite new, and the more hardcore people will probably just buy M-cars. It is certainly something Im going to check if buying a new "f"-series BMW.

Those things are what can be problems with modern cars, and a thing that might get worse in the future.. Coding/programing may be something that gets normal in the tuning process for enthusiats.. who knows..
I know there are people in germany who are quite good at it.
There are even pure "coding/programming" forums for BMWs. So there is hope, and help, and some cool stuff that can be done...

Previous 1-series just need an LSD, turn of DSC and your good to go.. But its heavier and not as good as the new models in most aspects..

[RaceR]

Sport Auto has piloted the M135i around the Ring in 8:18. The test car was RWD and equipped with a 6 speed manual transmission.

Here's how this time compares to other notable cars with similar lap times:

7:48 - BMW M3 GTS
7:50 - BMW M3 CSL
8:05 – BMW E92 M3 (2007)
8:09 – Audi RS4 (2006)
8:09 – BMW E63 M6 (2005)
8:13 – BMW E60 M5 (2004)
8:13 – Mercedes C63 AMG (2009)
8:15 – BMW 1M Coupe (2011)
8:16 – Porsche Cayman S (2009)
8:17 - Porsche Boxster S (2009)
8:18 – BMW M135i (2012)
8:18 - Lexus IS-F (2007)
8:22 – BMW E46 M3 (2000)
8:22 - BMW M Coupe (1998)
8:25 – Lotus Exige S (2008)
8:26 – Audi S5 (2008)

I think that is quite good! Compare with 1M and E46 M3..

[Turbowned]

I interrupt this technobabble to bring you... pics of my E30!







Gotta love 26xxlbs, 5spd Getrag, LSD, 134hp and 30mpg in an affordable package