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| Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain. |
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08-23-2013, 01:31 AM
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#1 |
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Photo Specialist
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Install Day - P&L Equal Length Header and Perrin Motor Mounts
P&L Equal Length Header and Perrin Motor Mounts Picture and Feedback thread
 20130822-DDPR_Day3-079 by VictorN07, on Flickr  20130822-DDPR_Day3-119 by VictorN07, on Flickr Background I think many of you know I have been having issues with my Borla UEL Header. It cracked before the merge collector and made a leak. As a result my car ran rich and it rattled like crazy. Regardless Borla stepped up and is sending me a replacement. You can see the information below. More in this thread: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=61 Rattle Video: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...2&postcount=70 With the given track sessions and trips I was making, I knew I need to fix this quickly as I want to avoid any sort of damage to my motor. The rattling was also very embarrassing. A new car shouldn't sound broken like mine did! Frankly, I didn't have confidence that the replacement Borla header was going to hold up. Despite the amazing customer service, I ended up taking my business elsewhere. I looked at what was available, and called up the vendors I was fancying. Gave P&L Motorsports a ring. Jake from @P&L Motorsports let me know they had parts in stock! Sounds good to me. I originally wanted a catless header but catted headers were all they had! It's a minor loss in power, but less than a leaky header! Wanted coated. They had it. Wanted an extra bung for my wideband since there is now a cat. Okay! Placed my order and was on my way. Shipped quick and came a few days later. Motor mounts were also on my list. Since I was doing the header, I just added this to my install day. Didn't think about this one too hard. Fortunately I had example cars with Perrin and Cusco mounts to ride in. Perrin's was good but not as good as the Cusco in terms of performance. The reason was because Cusco were pretty much solid mounts, and the Perrin had a block of polyurethane making it semi-solid for me. Riding ina Cusco car the NVH was almost too much for me. Group-N mounts are starting to trickle out, but I think I would burn through those quickly since its just stiffer rubber. My standing relationship with the guys at Perrin Performance swayed me that way despite being the most expensive. Thank you @Chris@Phastek for getting me the mounts. Install Normally I try to do these myself. Frankly I've been fairly lazy lately mostly due to the work its travel associated. I also didn't want to do all of this on my back. Took my car to the guys at DD Performance Research in Sealy, TX. I've contacted them to do work for me before and they delivered every time. I also love learning and were happy to teach me all sorts of things. My favorite thing they do is custom fabrication. My oil cooler top brackets, Front pipe O2 bung, and catch can/vacuum manifold plates were done by them. I will continue to use them for custom stuff and when i'm lazy  Overall the install went fairly smooth. The engine had to be lifted very high to get the stock motor mounts out because of the studs that extend from the bottom. I was also worried the P&L Header would not fit with the Vortech supercharger kit. I was worried the U pipe would come close to the crank pulley. I was worried that the header was close to the cam shaft sensor. Well none of these are true. It fit in a Vortech Supercharged car like an ace. The one problem I had was overpipe clearance in the subframe. The pictures will show later on, but I had millimetres of clearance. We did the best we can to make as much clearance as possible. @PERRIN_Chris was awesome to custom configure my tune to raise my idle to 900. I asked him to do this to help combat extra NVH caused by low idle. Love working with that guy. more details from the install will come with the plethora of pictures below Initial Feedback I got to put some serious miles on my car today since DD Performance Research is about an hour from me one way, and I drove 30 minutes to visit my parents. Right off the bat I can tell the motor mounts made a difference. My stock mounts had 17.8k miles on them and one track day. I think they were getting worn down a lot after putting the Perrin Mounts in. The engine no longer had to waste energy to overcome the slops of OEM motor mounts. Power delivery to the gearbox was efficient and instant. 1st and 2nd gear for me were a bit hesitant. At first I thought it was the tune but the mounts definitely helped response there. I had lazy pedal from flashing my car and the mounts worked so that it felt like it wasn't there. It was awesome. Note that the new tune I flashed was the same tune I had before, but with higher idle. It is Perrin Rev10. My idle is set to 900 RPM. The headers were also something special. The system just sounded right. Sealed, no leaks. Exhaust going in the right places. Despite having a cat, it made my car louder overall. The sound was smooth, more exotic than cammed muscle car like the Borla. I was sad to lose the rumble, but happy to get some more power from going back to Equal Length. My dad was convinced my car sounded stronger with the P&L than the Borla. With respect to noise, I can definitely hear the exhaust even when cruising 75mph or above. I don't know if I want to call it drone quite yet. Its not overbearing and doesn't give me headaches, but its there. At idle and low speeds it gets out of the way. Makes for a chill ride just going about in town to market and such. Romping on the throttle the exhaust wakes up and puts a smile on my face. I'm very happy choosing P&L. Note: I have the P&L Motorsports EL catted coated header with a 2.5" Perrin catted resonated headerback. I did mention the clearance thing with the overpipe. I know many people in this community has had clearance issues there with the various overpipes out there. The pictures below show all this in detail. For me, when I launch from naught, i hear something banging momentarily. It doesn't do it all the time, just low low RPMs. I think its the overpipe myself. If I didn't do the motor mounts, it'll probably be worse. however since I did do motor mounts and header at the same time, I'm not going to rule out the mounts. I'll drive it this weekend and see if the banging is still there. If so I'll have to take it back and see if we can adjust it any more. Simply put, my car was transformed immediately. Very very happy I hope to post more feedback after I put some more miles on it and a track day in late September. @Chris@Phastek also wanted to see what numbers I am putting down so Dynos will come. I'll try to get some videos as well to compare the sound.
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Last edited by F1point4; 08-23-2013 at 02:00 AM. |
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08-23-2013, 01:32 AM
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#2 |
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Photo Specialist
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Here are the product photos I posted up from my Journal.
Quote:
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08-23-2013, 01:32 AM
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#4 |
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Photo Specialist
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Install Photos
No Macro this time. I think people know I like taking pics Here we go Who says Houston isn't beautiful? Saw this when I was very close to DD Performance Research, so i stopped to snap a few photos  20130822-DDPR_Day3-001 by VictorN07, on Flickr  20130822-DDPR_Day3-002 by VictorN07, on Flickr  20130822-DDPR_Day3-007 by VictorN07, on Flickr The Password JDM Strut tower brace had to come off to lift the motor. Normally it sits on top of the AC line. It's hard to see but it's starting to make a notch in the hose. We wrapped this up before we reinstalled the bar  20130822-DDPR_Day3-010 by VictorN07, on Flickr Here is the Borla Header off my car. Five months old, 6000 miles, one track event, and Texas weather did this to the Borla. If you look hard enough you can see one thing wrong with the picture  20130822-DDPR_Day3-011 by VictorN07, on Flickr Some closeups  20130822-DDPR_Day3-012 by VictorN07, on Flickr  20130822-DDPR_Day3-013 by VictorN07, on Flickr  20130822-DDPR_Day3-015 by VictorN07, on Flickr This was the reason I got away from the Borla header  20130822-DDPR_Day3-014 by VictorN07, on Flickr Driver side flange. Many owners said their flanges weren't flat. I guess mine wasn't either. Probably explains why I heard faint faint hissing while accelerating. The leak wasn't super bad but it's still there  20130822-DDPR_Day3-016 by VictorN07, on Flickr  20130822-DDPR_Day3-017 by VictorN07, on Flickr Passenger side was fine  20130822-DDPR_Day3-018 by VictorN07, on Flickr Exhaust port of the driver's side. Note the buildup to the center stud due to the small leak  20130822-DDPR_Day3-023 by VictorN07, on Flickr Stock motor mount. There are two bolts that slide into the motor and one nut that holds the mount into the subframe. Passenger side picture.  20130822-DDPR_Day3-031 by VictorN07, on Flickr Driver's side picture  20130822-DDPR_Day3-032 by VictorN07, on Flickr Nut holding the mount and motor to the subframe  20130822-DDPR_Day3-035 by VictorN07, on Flickr View from the gearbox. A metal spacer goes up into the motor  20130822-DDPR_Day3-036 by VictorN07, on Flickr The mount removed from the car. We had to jack the motor fairly high to get it out due to the long stud that protrudes from the bottom. Perrin had a different design. Instead of a stud, they just supply bolts that go up into the mount. Should make lifting the motor easy in the future.  20130822-DDPR_Day3-049 by VictorN07, on Flickr More pictures of the OEM mounts  20130822-DDPR_Day3-051 by VictorN07, on Flickr  20130822-DDPR_Day3-057 by VictorN07, on Flickr OEM vs Perrin Mount  20130822-DDPR_Day3-064 by VictorN07, on Flickr I heard the Perrin Mount for the 86 is an adapted EJ mount. They supply these silver spacers so you can bolt up in the rear. The spacer was rotated so the flat side faces the rear in the final install.  20130822-DDPR_Day3-065 by VictorN07, on Flickr Installed! 20130822-DDPR_Day3-079 by VictorN07, on Flickr  20130822-DDPR_Day3-084 by VictorN07, on Flickr P&L does not supply exhaust manifold gaskets. These are brand new Subaru OEM gaskets. Today I learned the flat side goes against the motor and the perforated side goes to the flange on the header itself.  20130822-DDPR_Day3-088 by VictorN07, on Flickr On the product picture you can see there was some bits kinda sitting there from construction on the header. DD Performance Research recommended that I clean it up so these bits don't break off and go back into the engine. Here is the final result.  20130822-DDPR_Day3-089 by VictorN07, on Flickr Clean up was done to this bung.  20130822-DDPR_Day3-093 by VictorN07, on Flickr Starting to take shape!  20130822-DDPR_Day3-105 by VictorN07, on Flickr It looks so pretty. The long tubes look huge!  20130822-DDPR_Day3-109 by VictorN07, on Flickr  20130822-DDPR_Day3-116 by VictorN07, on Flickr 20130822-DDPR_Day3-119 by VictorN07, on Flickr  20130822-DDPR_Day3-124 by VictorN07, on Flickr P&L and Perrin represent  20130822-DDPR_Day3-125 by VictorN07, on Flickr Here is where I installed the secondary O2 sensor  20130822-DDPR_Day3-126 by VictorN07, on Flickr I thought this shot was very cool  20130822-DDPR_Day3-127 by VictorN07, on Flickr You can see the clearance to the crank pulley and fans. Plenty of room. We'll see if there still room when the rest of it goes on  20130822-DDPR_Day3-129 by VictorN07, on Flickr  20130822-DDPR_Day3-130 by VictorN07, on Flickr Passenger side clearance to the subframe. Plenty of room  20130822-DDPR_Day3-131 by VictorN07, on Flickr Driver side not so much. Still okay though  20130822-DDPR_Day3-132 by VictorN07, on Flickr Another shot of the clearance to the fans and crank pulley  20130822-DDPR_Day3-153 by VictorN07, on Flickr Coming along. You can see how we installed the v-band clamp. Plenty of room to the fan  20130822-DDPR_Day3-156 by VictorN07, on Flickr The header is no where near the camshaft sensor. This bung I used for my AEM Wideband Sensor  20130822-DDPR_Day3-158 by VictorN07, on Flickr Another clearance shot. Plenty of room  20130822-DDPR_Day3-161 by VictorN07, on Flickr From the top. The top O2 is my primary O2. Then goes the AEM Wideband sensor. It doesn't even come close to the Vortech assembly!  20130822-DDPR_Day3-162 by VictorN07, on Flickr Here is where we had a problem. The Overpipe was very close to two spots. One was this welded on piece of metal on the subframe  20130822-DDPR_Day3-164 by VictorN07, on Flickr The pipe actually sat on the subframe on the rear!  20130822-DDPR_Day3-168 by VictorN07, on Flickr Here is a closeup of the metal piece that the overpipe comes very close to.  20130822-DDPR_Day3-175 by VictorN07, on Flickr Warranty voided. Made some room there.  20130822-DDPR_Day3-179 by VictorN07, on Flickr Damn its very close in the rear. like millimetres. As I mention above, sometimes when I start from naught, I can hear something down there banging momentarily. I think its this overpipe. I think we did everything we could to get it to clear more. I may jack with it some more later on.  20130822-DDPR_Day3-181 by VictorN07, on Flickr Finished! Thanks for viewing
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Last edited by F1point4; 08-23-2013 at 02:00 AM. |
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08-23-2013, 01:33 AM
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#5 |
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Photo Specialist
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More Feedback
Cold Start and Standstill Revving Some people say these are pointless, Oh well. This is in the same underground parking structure as the video I did for the Borla. Here are both for comparison P&L Equal Length Catted Header [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgj4DDWhEdE"]P&L Equal Length Catted and Perrin Headerback - Standstill Idle and Revving - YouTube[/ame] Borla Unequal Length Catless Header [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbkXzeTC4o4"]Lola Full Exhaust (inside an underground parking structure) - YouTube[/ame] High Speed Cruising Being that my car is my daily, it is important to see how my car feels in everyday situations with the modifications. And I like sharing so here goes. Soooo.... I did a cruise up to Dallas to visit family and host the meet for the Dallas 86 enthusiasts. It is about 400km end to end of just driving on the expressway. I did 85 to 95 mph most of the way up there. The Escort saved me a few times. To report, the car is loud. In this range the exhaust definitely can be audible in the cabin. Note the rear of my car is dynamatted. I don't have to turn up my radio any louder than I normally do to hear my music, however I'm going to nix my plans of upgrading my speakers. Of course whether or not its too loud is subjective. I'm okay with it because racecar. As for the mounts, the car drove very smoothly. I couldn't really hear any extra vibrations resonating in the car. Power delivery is responsive as I posted yesterday. I took two breaks on this high speed cruise. During each break, I can feel a tingly sensation in my arms from holding the wheel continuously for so long. I guess that is a side effect of the extra NVH; I still enjoy the benefits the mounts provide. At Idle I can feel the vibration in the steering wheel and my seat. Not like large earth shaking pulses but I can feel it. Here is a short video of the exhaust sound during the high speed cruising. Pretty much straight out of my camera and I asked youtube to fix the shakes. Nothing professional here. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF7IMei1uPA"]P&L Motorsports/Perrin Performance Exhaust High Speed Cruising - YouTube[/ame] The Pipes they make ze noise Herr doktor My brother and I were going about town recording some sane driving sound clips and I got something to bang together a few times. I am pretty sure its the overpipe hitting the subframe. My car never made this noise before I installed this header. However all I have to go by is this noise, can't say for sure this is the root cause. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QWhflDntw0"]P&L Equal Length Catted Header and Perrin Overpipe Clearance Issue 001 - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgS4m4hlXZM"]P&L Equal Length Catted Header and Perrin Overpipe Clearance Issue 001 - YouTube[/ame] Going about in town Overall I find the system to be very easy to drive with going about in town. The exhaust definitely lets you know its there when you go through the powerband, but when you get to a easy cruise speed, it quickly gets out of the way. P&L Motorsports and Perrin definitely make good products. The following videos were just my brother and I going around Dallas. We found some good roads to stretch out Lola's legs while just having random chat. All of it was recorded on a windshield mounted OM-D. I had to rotate all the videos because the camera was upside down :| After trying this setup, i'm not sure if I want a go pro haha. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Kdr8o26drU"]P&L Equal Length Catted and Perrin Headerback - In Town Cruising 001 - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF-PQ_QYWFY"]P&L Equal Length Catted and Perrin Headerback - In Town Cruising 002 - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeSaJSw5fQ4"]P&L Equal Length Catted and Perrin Headerback - In Town Cruising 003 - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8wQOJNtdPg"]P&L Equal Length Catted and Perrin Headerback - In Town Cruising 004 - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww_wd5yGxOY"]P&L Equal Length Header and Perrin Headerback - In Town Cruising 005 - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkkonLu5lM0"]P&L Equal Length Catted and Perrin Headerback - In Town Cruising 006 - YouTube[/ame] Motor Mount Comparison I don't have the means to record video of the engine while driving so idle videos will have to do. Despite this, you can see a clear difference in the mounts. Note: the vehicle with the OEM mounts is NA, while my car with the Perrin Mounts is Vortech Supercharged. Logically, if the mounts were the same, the supercharged motor would vibrate more. You can see my motor barely moves on ignition and during applications of throttle. My mate's car, his motor moves a bit. Perrin Engine Mount [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4E0JH1KhiY"]86 Motor Mount Comparison - Perrin Performance Motor Mounts - YouTube[/ame] OEM Engine Mount [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDw1XPzUqRU"]86 Motor Mount Comparison - OEM Motor Mounts - YouTube[/ame]
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08-23-2013, 10:08 AM
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#6 | |
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That guy
Join Date: Feb 2012
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Quote:
The cable for the fans runs a little too close to the header here for my taste. I relocated mine inside the fan shroud to keep it from getting that close to the header. It took 30 seconds and a zip tie. Amazing photos again.
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Ultramarine mt FR-S
P&L stage 1 turbo Prime Motoring Flex fuel Jr Tuned 506whp @17psi (e73) |
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08-23-2013, 10:28 AM
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#7 |
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Just a dude
Join Date: Mar 2013
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The motor mounts had to of added lots nvh yes? I think as you're racing lots makes sense however.
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08-23-2013, 10:39 AM
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#8 |
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Sideways and Smiling!
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Dyno dyno!!
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Element Tuning 10:1 Pro Comp Long Block, Ptuning SS GT3076R turbo kit, Exedy Stage 2 Clutch, and a bunch of other stuff
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08-23-2013, 11:04 AM
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#9 |
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Senior Member
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Beautiful pictures as always. Leave it up to you to make boring motor mounts look like works of art!
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Superfast Jellyfish
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08-23-2013, 11:46 AM
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#10 |
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Senior Member
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WOW, those are some super awesome pics!!
Did your overpipe fit ok with the stock header and the Borla? Feedback on this would be great as you are the second person with that header and clearance problems and we may need to make some special notes about this. Did you try adjusting the V-band connection much to help the clearance? |
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08-23-2013, 11:57 AM
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#11 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
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if you look in the group buy thread for the 4-1 P&L header it seems like some others with the catted header are having the same issue, using the P&L overpipe or not. There is some conjecture it is how the header outlet sits and it positions the overpipe at a slightly different angle than stock and there just isn't much clearance down there to begin with. P&L is looking into it but I don't think they have a local car exhibiting the same issue.
I haven't installed mine yet, I am waiting on the STi GroupN motor mounts to come in. I had the same idea as you, do both at one time while you are messing with things. I'm sure with the motor mounts are going to less prone to hitting the subframe than those with stock motor mounts. |
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08-23-2013, 12:00 PM
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#12 |
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Senior Member
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That is some nice kit you added. I had no idea that the Perrin engine mounts were of such high quality.
Nice photos too.
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Phantom ESC, ECUtek Tune, Nameless Front Pipe & Axle Back, Enkei RS+M 17x8 et35, OEM+Ref
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08-23-2013, 01:29 PM
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#13 | |
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Senior Member
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Quote:
Also if they are the Group N STI mounts they will not work without some mods. 
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08-23-2013, 01:43 PM
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#14 | |
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Photo Specialist
Join Date: Feb 2012
Drives: 2013 Toyota 86 DGM 6MT
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Quote:
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2013 Scion FR-S
