Moto-East Flex Fuel kit is official and released!

[FReSh]

Originally Posted by moto-mike

VERY IMPORTANT for current flex fuel users and upcoming folks (even if you have someone else's kit).

As the FT86 has both DI and PI, you have two different places you can put the kit in. We chose the port injection line, some choose the DI line. But regardless of which one, under most situations the car is in Direct Injection, and rarely port injection. We've gone as much as 50 miles and still not detected the new fuel on the port line! So if you have a kit that uses the DI as the sensor line, when you go to WOT past 5000 RPM you're getting the old fuel that sits in the rail for as many as 5 full WOT pulls. So if you filled up with e85, sensor indicates e85, and ECU thinks it is e85--in reality you are getting significant doses of pump gas sprayed regardless through the PI.

Our solution to this is as follows:

With our flex fuel tune you can select the VSC button to sport, and that will trigger a "learning mode" where both PI and DI will fire at low loads/rpms. Once you see the ECA stop moving you know that the fuel has pretty much fully circulated. Then you are good to go. We are also going to probably implement this so the first 120 seconds of the car being on it does this too. But we're waiting on EcuTek to fix a bug we found. Should be done shortly. Then you only would trigger the mode if you're not restarting the car or if it needs more time.

So to clarify... Please correct me if I have mixed something up.

The PI line only gets used under heavy loads, or higher RPM (basically when the engine needs more fuel)? The DI line is always used (during hard acceleration, and daily driving)? Why use the PI line for the ECA then?

I understand that some old fuel can be sitting in the PI line, and that is why you will be using this system that runs both lines for a little while to clean it out. This still doesn't explain why you would have the ECA on the PI line, though. Couldn't you run the ECA on the DI line to get an accurate reading of what the car is ALWAYS currently running on, and then just run both lines like you described to make sure that the PI line is cleaned out and has the same fuel as the DI line?

I just ask because it seems counter intuitive to have the ECA on the line that remains inactive for the majority of the tank of fuel that it is supposed to be measuring. It seems like the work-around that you guys came up with to clean out the PI line will help to remedy the left over fuel issue itself and the ECA doesn't really need to be on the PI line.

Thanks! Love the look and fit/finish of the kit! Looks very high quality and the price is pretty reasonable.

Edit: also... Why use the sport mode button? Would this present any problems for people who actually like to use the sport setting for when they go driving?

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by FReSh

So to clarify... Please correct me if I have mixed something up.

The PI line only gets used under heavy loads, or higher RPM (basically when the engine needs more fuel)? The DI line is always used (during hard acceleration, and daily driving)? Why use the PI line for the ECA then?

I understand that some old fuel can be sitting in the PI line, and that is why you will be using this system that runs both lines for a little while to clean it out. This still doesn't explain why you would have the ECA on the PI line, though. Couldn't you run the ECA on the DI line to get an accurate reading of what the car is ALWAYS currently running on, and then just run both lines like you described to make sure that the PI line is cleaned out and has the same fuel as the DI line?

I just ask because it seems counter intuitive to have the ECA on the line that remains inactive for the majority of the tank of fuel that it is supposed to be measuring. It seems like the work-around that you guys came up with to clean out the PI line will help to remedy the left over fuel issue itself and the ECA doesn't really need to be on the PI line.

Thanks! Love the look and fit/finish of the kit! Looks very high quality and the price is pretty reasonable.

i can't talk to their reasoning, but fwiw the port/di split depends entirely upon your tune, and just cruising around town by default you're using more di than pi. also once the cars warm it idles on 100% di, so people who sit and idle to watch the percentage change would be best served by having it on the di line.

[AZFA20]

Originally Posted by FReSh

So to clarify... Please correct me if I have mixed something up.

The PI line only gets used under heavy loads, or higher RPM (basically when the engine needs more fuel)? The DI line is always used (during hard acceleration, and daily driving)? Why use the PI line for the ECA then?

I understand that some old fuel can be sitting in the PI line, and that is why you will be using this system that runs both lines for a little while to clean it out. This still doesn't explain why you would have the ECA on the PI line, though. Couldn't you run the ECA on the DI line to get an accurate reading of what the car is ALWAYS currently running on, and then just run both lines like you described to make sure that the PI line is cleaned out and has the same fuel as the DI line?

I just ask because it seems counter intuitive to have the ECA on the line that remains inactive for the majority of the tank of fuel that it is supposed to be measuring. It seems like the work-around that you guys came up with to clean out the PI line will help to remedy the left over fuel issue itself and the ECA doesn't really need to be on the PI line.

Thanks! Love the look and fit/finish of the kit! Looks very high quality and the price is pretty reasonable.

Edit: also... Why use the sport mode button? Would this present any problems for people who actually like to use the sport setting for when they go driving?

My thinking would be that he has done this as almost a failsafe. Yes you could do it differently so that the ECA sees instant E% but that doesn't fix the fact that there is possibly Petrol in the lines. Who cares if the ECA reads 85% instantly if when you get on it you are diluting the E% as the PI lines purge themselves anyway. This would cause the FF maps to incorrectly adjust for what it thinks is a higher E% than what is actually being injected for a small period of time. The way he has done it eliminates the problem all together. You visually see the correct E% once the system is purged and the ECU is calculating correct mapping based on actual E% from possible residual Petrol in the PI lines.

[FReSh]

This makes sense. but I still have this thought in the back of my mind:

If you drive the car around like a grandma, or have a long highway trip, the PI will rarely ever get used, so it won't actually be reading any changes that may occur in the content due to mixing. I'm just wondering if this could cause a problem if you have half a tank of 91 and then fill the rest with E85. At first, it may be mostly 91 or mostly E85 depending where the fuel pick-up is. Later, after the fuel has more time to completely mix, it may have a different overall ethanol content. If that change occurs while you're cruising in 6th on the highway after the system already finished flushing the PI line and is inactive, then what? Could you be driving for 50 miles before the PI line gets used so the ECA can update to the more accurate reading of the mixture?

Why not run the ECA on the DI line and have it run both PI and DI for 120 seconds on some sort of super-conservative tune until you know the system is flushed out? This way during longer regular driving, the ECA can adjust more frequently.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by FReSh

This makes sense. but I still have this thought in the back of my mind:

If you drive the car around like a grandma, or have a long highway trip, the PI will rarely ever get used, so it won't actually be reading any changes that may occur in the content due to mixing. I'm just wondering if this could cause a problem if you have half a tank of 91 and then fill the rest with E85. At first, it may be mostly 91 or mostly E85 depending where the fuel pick-up is. Later, after the fuel has more time to completely mix, it may have a different overall ethanol content. If that change occurs while you're cruising in 6th on the highway after the system already finished flushing the PI line and is inactive, then what? Could you be driving for 50 miles before the PI line gets used so the ECA can update to the more accurate reading of the mixture?

Why not run the ECA on the DI line and have it run both PI and DI for 120 seconds on some sort of super-conservative tune until you know the system is flushed out? This way during longer regular driving, the ECA can adjust more frequently.

no. pretty much any time the car is moving it's using some percentage of port fueling. you can look and the port/di ratio maps to see this. there's a brief spot at high load where it runs 100% di, but that probably doesn't exist in any aftermarket tune anyway.

[FReSh]

Originally Posted by jamesm

no. pretty much any time the car is moving it's using some percentage of port fueling. you can look and the port/di ratio maps to see this. there's a brief spot at high load where it runs 100% di, but that probably doesn't exist in any aftermarket tune anyway.

This makes more sense. Mike's post made it sound like it rarely used the PI.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by FReSh

This makes more sense. Mike's post made it sound like it rarely used the PI.

It depends on the tune, but by default it's used most of the time. Warm idle is the main time that it isn't.

[enjoyminutemaid]

Is that the return line where the sensor is installed?

[Corradooo]

So wait 799 for the kit and tune and ecutek license???

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by enjoyminutemaid

Is that the return line where the sensor is installed?

Our cars dont have a return line. That is the ABS module and its brake fluid lines (unless you mean the fuel line going into the sensor which is the Port Injector line).

[Xero-Limit]

Originally Posted by FReSh

This makes more sense. Mike's post made it sound like it rarely used the PI.

Edit: also... Why use the sport mode button? Would this present any problems for people who actually like to use the sport setting for when they go driving?

Port is used under 2500 RPM, and above 5200 RPM at mid-high loads. DI is always used. On our FI tunes though, we disable/reduce port in the lower range, and on some of the NA tunes we reduce port injection up top as well. So it does depend on the tune as was said. Because this kit will be used for not just our tunes, we're making the the rationale and the tuning changes required public so everyone can benefit and use with their local tuner.

Why the PI line? First off this means the user can look at the gauge and tell when the fuel system is fully flushed through. Since even the "learning mode" biases to DI 65% and PI 35%, this makes sure that when the gauge stops moving, you're 100% ready to get on the throttle and not worry. If you're going from pump to e85 this is very significant, but if you're bouncing from one e85 station to another and it ranges from e70 to e85 it matters very little. The mix from DI/PI will be very close and after a few pulls it will even out in those cases.

What we know from doing map switch based ethanol mapping, is that it takes a couple of minutes for the tank to slosh around and the lines to flush with the new fuel. The flex fuel kits help with the precision and feeding the ECU the signal, but it definitely takes a little while for the fuel lines to fully clear of the old fuel.

Sport mode button-we can implement this any way you'd like. If you prefer TC off that's fine, or sport mode in just map 1/2/3/4, it is easy to select. I just personally hate sport mode because it cuts off power mid drift and tries to send you into the nearest hard object!

Originally Posted by Corradooo

So wait 799 for the kit and tune and ecutek license???

That's the NA tune + license + ecutek hardware, but not including the flex fuel kit.

[FReSh]

I hate to be a pain, but I tend to use sport mode when I'm on a road that I'm not too familiar with, and full off for roads that I know. What would be the best way to program it then?

[Xero-Limit]

Originally Posted by FReSh

I hate to be a pain, but I tend to use sport mode when I'm on a road that I'm not too familiar with, and full off for roads that I know. What would be the best way to program it then?

Not a pain at all, our maps are all custom so we can set it up to however you'd like

We can set it up to work with TC OFF or VSC SPORT or just in a particular map, but what the final tune will have is a 120 sec timeout, so that should not even be necessary. It is just a stop gap until the timeout mapping is bug free.

[jamesm]

Hey I want custom map activation timeouts