Suing Toyota over Warranty Issue (Synchros)

[neroman98]

As many of you have experienced, my 4th gear synchro is starting to get worn out. As a result, my FRS grinds going into 4th gear in high RPMs. I took my car to Toyota to have the car looked at, and after diagnosis, they asked me for $10k to replace the transmission, despite my car being in warranty. They said that due to my modifications and the track time my car has endured, I caused the issue and therefore it is unwarrantable.
After researching on this forum, it has become prevalent to me that this issue is far from uncommon, even on stock 86s. Legally, auto manufacturers have to prove that modifications or abuse are the direct cause of an issue in order to deny a warranty, and in this case, the issue was caused by the poor design of the transmission, and not my use or modifications.
In a final attempt to have Toyota held accountable for the issues my car is facing, we are taking them to small claims court to receive compensation for the transmission replacement.

If you or another user you know has had this issue, please respond to this thread or PM me. Our evidence to prove that this issue is not our fault is going to be showing the judge how common this issue is. Don't worry, I'm not asking anyone to drive to California and show up in a court room, I just have a couple of questions to help me form a case.

Thank you so much for helping out a fellow 86 owner. I will keep this thread up to date with developments as I may not be the only one facing this "modification discrimination"

If you have any more questions, these two videos may help answer them:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMRhKQLzvNc&t=37s"]TOYOTA SCREWED ME OVER! (and how I could've avoided it) - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjDCzRm0HsM"]We are suing Toyota. - YouTube[/ame]

[Tcoat]

The very first thing any good lawyer should tell you is to get rid of those videos and stop making comments on the case on a public forum or other social media.
You are handing them your case on a silver platter.

[Mr.ac]

Wut..

Dude, you said you "raced" it and "mod" it. Even put it on a YouTube vid. Things are not in your favor. Good luck with the case.

For future reference, do not tell them you "race" or "mod" it.

To any mechanic that has a warranty claim when the customer tells them they race or mod it. To them they have no idea what kind of race or mods you done. For all they know you could have been in a world rally race, or a tractor pull drag race, in this case the tractor being your car. Then you come in and them tell them it has issues after said racing and modding.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Mr.ac

Dude, you said you "raced" it and "mod" it.

HPDE =/= racing

[neroman98]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The very first thing any good lawyer should tell you is to get rid of those videos and stop making comments on the case on a public forum or other social media.
You are handing them your case on a silver platter.

I should have gotten rid of the videos, you are right, but this is the situation I'm left with. Regarding publicly commenting on the case, I am not putting any of the evidence I will be using against them online, I am simply trying to gain support and collect evidence.

Thank you for your concern, and I will make sure to be weary of what I post or say about the case online, but I need to use public outlets like this to gather the evidence.

[neroman98]

Originally Posted by Mr.ac

Wut..

Dude, you said you "raced" it and "mod" it. Even put it on a YouTube vid. Things are not in your favor. Good luck with the case.

For future reference, do not tell them you "race" or "mod" it.

To any mechanic that has a warranty claim when the customer tells them they race or mod it. To them they have no idea what kind of race or mods you done. For all they know you could have been in a world rally race, or a tractor pull drag race, in this case the tractor being your car. Then you come in and them tell them it has issues after said racing and modding.

Like I told TCoat, it was a poor decision to leave my videos accessible when I gave them the car, but they found them on their own. I did not tell them I race.

Either way, this is the situation I am left with. At this point all I can do is gather evidence and hope the case goes well.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by neroman98

I should have gotten rid of the videos, you are right, but this is the situation I'm left with. Regarding publicly commenting on the case, I am not putting any of the evidence I will be using against them online, I am simply trying to gain support and collect evidence.

Thank you for your concern, and I will make sure to be weary of what I post or say about the case online, but I need to use public outlets like this to gather the evidence.

Gathering "evidence" of other failures is not going to help when they are claiming misuse and modifications are at fault. The very fact you are asking other for info is evidence they can use. Any small thing you say may be twisted to mean something else. Talk to your lawyer and see what they have to say but going public during any form a court action is not a good idea.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

HPDE =/= racing

What you, I or everybody else here may define it as does not mean anything. Show a non enthusiast judge a video of a HPDE event and he could (and probably would) rule it as "racing".

Hell they just need to look up the definition to be swayed in the wrong direction:
"The High Performance Driver Education (HPDE) refers to driving schools held on dedicated race tracks designed to teach drivers proper high speed driving techniques."

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Show a non enthusiast judge a video of a HPDE event and he could (and probably would) rule it as "racing".

race
rās
verb
gerund or present participle: racing
1.
compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective.

No timing, no competition = no racing

It comes back to what is deemed "abuse and misuse" as we blather on and on again on a monthly basis.

[Chronology]

@Darkiv posted in a thread about the Magnuson-Moss Act. "They cannot deny a warranty claim unless they can prove that whatever your modification was regardless of if it was done to the transmission or not caused the issue. And they have to prove it, not just say it." Act

Follow up question since I didn't have time to watch your videos at work -

1. What parts/mods did they say caused the failure?
2. What part do they say is failed? My specific issue (I think) is with the 4-5 / 5-6 single cone syncro.

The comment I made, (4k left on my 36k warranty) initially was: I am having issues/resistance/grinding when trying to up shift into 5th with anything over 4k RPM AND/OR down shifting from 6th into 5th at any appropriate RPM, I told them that I did a trans/diff flush and and replaced with OE+ fluids but the issue persisted over 2k miles before I took it to them.

The SA at the dealer knew my car was modded, and told me they where tuner friendly, (a majority of tech's have STI's modded) but not to BS them. He also stated to me that no way was my car powerful enough to bang on 4th/5th/6th at a track/HPDE event or freeway pulls.

As of today, I am 4 business days with my car at the dealer. The master tech who's working on it is awaiting a tech call, the master tech even told me that he was going to replace all 4 of my coil packs because coil pack 1 was going bad (Apparently I eat cylinder 1 coils like breakfast - I am on my 3rd) I was advised to visit the dealer tomorrow (Day 5) and request a loaner car until my repairs where completed.

How that tech call goes, I have no idea. The SA said that the master tech working on it, basically types up all then notes and then someone at Subaru NA will be the final decision on what needs to be replaced or repaired.

I think a few factors go into getting support from a dealer:

1. As the customer, being calm, collective and respectful with SA's get you HUGE points. Don't walk in with you go-pro and your "crew" thinking that your mommy and daddy own the place.

2. Not being pushy with SA/Tech/Dealership. Shit takes time, your not the only person in line.

In the last 4 days I called once. Day 4 just to get a status update.

3. Understanding the dealerships role, your role as a client and everything in-between.

While many argue this car is/isnt "track use" or have videos/ad's showing the car with mods/track days. You have to understand that its a Sales/Marketing technique. If you take a brand new 86, do a ton of mods that Subaru cannot say 100% it will "work with the car" then drive it like you stole it and post it all over the Internet. Well, sorry I don't feel bad. This is where social media screws young people. All the shit you put online is online forever. I mean come on, you don't see TJ Hunt going to a Subaru dealer asking for service do you?

There is a HUGE line between sales/marking and the physical build/intended use of the car. If you want an OE track car, buy a Porsche CUP car and ask what type of support you get. NONE. I think Ferrari FXX is the only customer facing car that does come with support, but you cant drive that on the road nor will Ferrari let you keep it at home. I am sure they have more unique cars that may have race setups from the OEM side, I just don't have the money to know about them

I hope it all works our for you and anyone else in the same boat (myself included), I also hope you have your expectations in order. The real world has a nasty stick it will be happy to beat you with in life.

[bababooey]

OP, when going to 4th, does shifting a little sooner than redline or shifting a little slower resolve the grind you are experiencing?

unfortunately i suspect these transmissions will grind bone stock straight off the lot in the condition mentioned. but good luck with outcome.

[Chronology]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

No timing, no competition = no racing

Do you HONESTLY believe that? It sounds like that last post I saw on here about someone doing a warranty claim with a dealer and said the same shit.

The dealer laughed them out of the building, his/her IG/Facebook at all types of shots of the driver/car on the track and the excuse was the same you JUST said.

And before you say, well they shouldn't be looking up peoples "personal" accounts/info. Well, its not personal when its public on the internet.

This is why I am not in customer service. The shit people believe, say and do is crazy!

[mav1178]

Oren Holzman,

Before you continue any further, I suggest you get a lawyer.

Thanks.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Chronology

Do you HONESTLY believe that? It sounds like that last post I saw on here about someone doing a warranty claim with a dealer and said the same shit.
-----------------------------------------
This is why I am not in customer service. The shit people believe, say and do is crazy!

Do I believe what? That HPDE's aren't racing?

Abso-fucking-lutely! And if you think differently I pray to god you stay off the track because that's not what HPDE's are about and you'd be a danger. They're educational events, fun events, and safe non-competitive events provided everyone is on the same page.

What matters is "has the car been abused?" We could argue what constitutes "abuse" with HPDE's and autocross events and clutch drops on backroads until the cows come home, but I'm bored with that discussion.

To be explicitly clear here, I'm only talking about this because it's a known warranty issue that could affect any 86 and several transmissions have been replaced under warranty. Yes there are things that can and will fail prematurely due to hard driving, things that are consumable and easily replaceable, transmission synchros are not one of those things in this day and age provided the car has not been abused.

I thank god that Toyota and Subaru tried their damnedest to design a car that lives up to a hefty amount of hard driving and I've only had to replace coil packs outside of regular planned maintenance. I learned my lesson, it's not worth it to buy fun cars new, you're paying for a warranty that most OE's will not honor if you don't have a cooperative dealership on your side.

I hope you one day get the chance to go out and drive your car at 10/10ths out at Willow Springs or Buttonwillow or an autocross, it's a sublime experience and this car was in fact designed to operate nearly flawlessly at the limit for a long time with only minor changes from the factory spec.