My Goals with this Forum!!!

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

The swap seems to add ~100-250 lbs to the curb weight of an 86.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38499

http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showt...?t=8275&page=2

Correct, and mostly that comes from the T56 from what has been explained. The post I quoted was specifically disbelieving the LS motor weight in comparison to the FA20.


Oh well, 100-250 lbs is easy to overcome with nearly three times the available horsepower and torque on tap and better transmission gearing.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

The swap seems to add ~100-250 lbs to the curb weight of an 86.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38499

http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showt...?t=8275&page=2

I was super excited that I thought we had moved from 56% to 52% front weight bias with the V8 swap. But it was too good to be true. I screwed up and didn't read the picture correctly. Our guys had the scale readout to show corner bias, not front to rear bias, and I should have noticed this. So the mistake is 100% mine, I own it. A sharp eyed reader on one forum caught this mistake from my last post, and the front-to-rear bias actually didn't change at all - still 56% of the total weight on the nose. But considering what the car gained (134 pounds), with all of the added weight in the middle and front of the car, to manage to keep the same front-to-rear bias was still a good thing. Most AWD and FWD cars we've weighed are closer to 60F/40R, so this V8 FR-S is still ahead of many competitive cars out there. My apologies for posting bad info - mistakes like that drive me crazy - and I have already corrected this mistake on many forums where this thread is posted or re-posted.



Straight from the second link

[cf6mech]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Yep. Dry engine weight is just part of it. Changed tranny, more oil, heavier mounts to handle HP and so on all add up.

If you read the Vorshlag blog,.....I gained a measly 100 LBS and kept the exact front to back bias......since then I have lost even more weight by removed A/C compressor and condenser.....removed all air bags and wiring....Stereo speakers and wiring etc.etc...(track car)..but a 100lbs gain with the same balance for a trade off of 372whp and 465ftlbs of torque on pump gas NA is all win to me.

* Vorshlog before correction on weight bias....but total weight gain is unchanged *
The initial car came to us at 2682 pounds (no back seat + 17x9" wheels + roll bar + race seats + front BBK) and with the LS1 + T56 it is now 2816 pounds, for a gain of 134 pounds. I'm a little surprised by that amount of gain, honestly, because my initial best-case estimate of a 50 pound gain wasn't that accurate. Some of this gain is added fuel weight; the car came to us with less than a gallon of E85 in the tank, and now has a 1/3rd of a tank of 93 octane - maybe 35 pounds more fuel than before. So the real gain from the LS1/T56 Magnum XL swap was about 100 pounds.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by cf6mech

372whp and 465ftlbs of torque on pump gas NA is all win to me.
.

What is your setup that you're running 100 ft lbs more torque than HP. WTF cam you have in that thing? lol.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by cf6mech

Well then you need to educate yourself,....dont take my word for it,.....listen to an expert............
http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8275

I read the article. Nothing to educate myself. It contains known issues about the FI solutions on our cars and then makes a general critic on the boxer design. These guys don't know anything about the history of these engines. The boxer engines are well tested in racing for decades and they proved that can be very competitive comparing to other engine designs. Then they start discussing about weight savings and how to gain some weight from the exhaust, wheels, flywheel. These are solutions that can be used even in the stock car. What is the relationship to the engine swap? Of course, they never give the before and after overall weight of the car. I wouldn't even dare to question where is the new center of gravity.

Originally Posted by Twinz

I just skimmed through the two pages, but I did not see anything about how the V8-powerd car handled compared to stock, much less an "expert" opinion on said handling.

They added 134lbs, and the corner balance is over 52%.

Neither of those compromises are a train wreck, but they are compromises.

I have driven a couple miata's with V8 swaps. Maybe they were done wrong, but they no longer handled as well as a stock Miata.

Exactly!

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Do a little research, the LSx (x being variant) is a well thought out, modern design as well. Aluminum block and cylinder heads in a compact design with large displacement.


Basically why the engine is swapped so much over offerings by other companies. It is compact, reliable, and lightweight.


FA20 dry supposedly weighs 377 lbs based off a thread I found on ft86club.
LS1, there are multiple quotes depending on where you look.... but fully dressed with oil around 430 according to hot rod magazine.

I already did my search and know some things about the LSx engines. I didn't want to mention this, because I preferred to ask a person who did the whole swap thing.

From my point of view, his car is not anymore a FR-S/BRZ. Not so much for the reason of the more power, but for the reason that it is not focusing any more on the handling aspect. Whoever reads my complete reply, he'll understand. At least this is my personal opinion.


I am not saying that it is not an interesting project, but it is something different.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I read the article. Nothing to educate myself. It contains known issues about the FI solutions on our cars and then makes a general critic on the boxer design. These guys don't know anything about the history of these engines. The boxer engines are well tested in racing for decades and they proved that can be very competitive comparing to other engine designs. Then they start discussing about weight savings and how to gain some weight from the exhaust, wheels, flywheel. These are solutions that can be used even in the NA car. What is the relationship to the engine swap? Of course, they never give the before and after overall weight of the car. I wouldn't even dare to question where is the new center of gravity.



Exactly!




I already did my search and know some things about the LSx engines. I didn't want to mention this, because I preferred to ask a person who did the whole swap thing.

From my point of view, his car is not anymore a FR-S/BRZ. Not so much for the reason of the more power, but for the reason that it is not focusing any more on the handling aspect. Whoever reads my complete reply, he'll understand. At least this is my personal opinion.

They stated it made no change to the overall F/R balance, corner weighted well, and added around 134 lbs. Seems like it should handle mostly the same, but have a nice powerband on hand. With the gearing of the transmission and the overall more reliable V8 and T56 combo, the vehicle would do quite well on a road course.


Seems like that is the direction that vehicle is going in anyways with the responses in this thread @cf6mech

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

The swap seems to add ~100-250 lbs to the curb weight of an 86.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38499

http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showt...?t=8275&page=2

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Yep. Dry engine weight is just part of it. Changed tranny, more oil, heavier mounts to handle HP and so on all add up.

Originally Posted by cf6mech

If you read the Vorshlag blog,.....I gained a measly 100 LBS and kept the exact front to back bias......since then I have lost even more weight by removed A/C compressor and condenser.....removed all air bags and wiring....Stereo speakers and wiring etc.etc...(track car)..but a 100lbs gain with the same balance for a trade off of 372whp and 465ftlbs of torque on pump gas NA is all win to me.

* Vorshlog before correction on weight bias....but total weight gain is unchanged *
The initial car came to us at 2682 pounds (no back seat + 17x9" wheels + roll bar + race seats + front BBK) and with the LS1 + T56 it is now 2816 pounds, for a gain of 134 pounds. I'm a little surprised by that amount of gain, honestly, because my initial best-case estimate of a 50 pound gain wasn't that accurate. Some of this gain is added fuel weight; the car came to us with less than a gallon of E85 in the tank, and now has a 1/3rd of a tank of 93 octane - maybe 35 pounds more fuel than before. So the real gain from the LS1/T56 Magnum XL swap was about 100 pounds.

What are you debating with me on?
Strat - "car gains 100-250 pounds"
Me - "Yep"
You - "my car gained 100 pounds"


Once again I said nothing about it impacting handling or any other such thing that could be construed as negative.


You then go on to say "trade off of 372whp and 465ftlbs of torque on pump gas NA" which supports my original statement that your car is no longer a "FRS" when competing against a Camaro.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

................
From my point of view, his car is not anymore a FR-S/BRZ. Not so much for the reason of the more power, but for the reason that it is not focusing any more on the handling aspect. Whoever reads my complete reply, he'll understand. At least this is my personal opinion.


I am not saying that it is not an interesting project, but it is something different.

This pretty much reflects my sentiment..........


humfrz

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by cf6mech

If you read the Vorshlag blog,.....I gained a measly 100 LBS and kept the exact front to back bias......since then I have lost even more weight by removed A/C compressor and condenser.....removed all air bags and wiring....Stereo speakers and wiring etc.etc...(track car)..but a 100lbs gain with the same balance for a trade off of 372whp and 465ftlbs of torque on pump gas NA is all win to me.

* Vorshlog before correction on weight bias....but total weight gain is unchanged *
The initial car came to us at 2682 pounds (no back seat + 17x9" wheels + roll bar + race seats + front BBK) and with the LS1 + T56 it is now 2816 pounds, for a gain of 134 pounds. I'm a little surprised by that amount of gain, honestly, because my initial best-case estimate of a 50 pound gain wasn't that accurate. Some of this gain is added fuel weight; the car came to us with less than a gallon of E85 in the tank, and now has a 1/3rd of a tank of 93 octane - maybe 35 pounds more fuel than before. So the real gain from the LS1/T56 Magnum XL swap was about 100 pounds.

It is not important the weight per se. It is more important where you gain or lose weight. Is it in the low end of the car or is it on the high end? Have you seen the 14R60 project? The engineers were struggling to gain a few lbs. from the roof of the car. Is it so important to lose a few lbs? Answer is yes if you lose this weight from the highest part of the car.

Anyway, I stop the discussion here. I am not saying that you don't have a nice car and a fast car. Your car should be even faster than the 14R60 project car. I am all saying that it is different car.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Anyway, I stop the discussion here. I am not saying that you don't have a nice car and a fast car. Your car should be even faster than the 14R60 project car. I am all saying that it is different car.

My points all along!
And I always thought that the overly defensive, attempt to justify what nobody is hating on, finding insults where there were none, call people that like the car the way it is "fanboi" attitude was the exclusive realm of the hellaflush crowd. Guess I was wrong.

[FX86]

can we close this thread because this is getting seriously out of hand?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by FX86

can we close this thread because this is getting seriously out of hand?

But nobody has even referenced my number of posts as part of their argument yet!

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by FX86

can we close this thread because this is getting seriously out of hand?

NO! ...... to soon ...... we haven't seen "the other side" of @Tcoat yet ......


humfrz

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

My points all along!
And I always thought that the overly defensive, attempt to justify what nobody is hating on, finding insults where there were none, call people that like the car the way it is "fanboi" attitude was the exclusive realm of the hellaflush crowd. Guess I was wrong.

Eh, fanboi was around way before herrafrush