Electric Cars?

[Godzpeed]

I was just reading that Engadget has finally driven the Model S, and just wanna share my experience with Electric cars and see what do you guys think of these full electric cars? like the Nissan Leaf, Tesla Roadster and Model S?

its a no brainer for me, since I live in a place that pay close to $9 a gallon for gas. So far I've only driven the Leaf and the Tesla Roadster. Let me start with the Leaf, I think its a very well built car and very easy to drive with loads of pick up torque. A to B daily grind and stop and go traffic works really well with this car. Electric cars are so smooth and quiet, it makes a Mercedes S class feel clumsy and loud! But the limited range and relatively high price (here in hk) for its performance. There was no way I could join in the EV camp.

But after driving it, it got me really interested in buying an EV. First of all, gas price here is just crazy and my family average spend close to $10k USD a month just on gas. Buying an EV for short distance trips already make sense. Plus, HK is quite small. Second of all, EV in Hong Kong are tax free, which makes them extremely good value compare to similar cars.

So I called up the Tesla guys and booked a test drive with the Roadster S to give a feel on what Tesla is all about. This thing was phenomenal! I drove it for about an hour, highways, mountain pass, traffic jams... I had it at 80% charge and after driving close to 80KM, it still shows that I have 140KM range left! It was a totally different experience than the Leaf, it felt like driving a golf cart on steroids! The single geared motor was butter smooth and accelerate at a much more fearsome way when even compared to my GTR! Now if only there was a proper sedan with proper range like the Roadster, this would be the perfect daily car. So here comes the Model S.


I haven't driven the Model S but here are the comparison on the 3 cars in terms of range and price.

Leaf - 120km range - $420,000
Roadster - 240km-300km Range - $1.2 million
Model S - 480km Range - expected to be under $700,000 (Similar gas powered cars in this group would cost close to double)

So the Model S seems like a huge bargain compare to the leaf and its much more capable.

Now if only Tesla could produce these car faster and hurry up and deliver my RHD model!

[bestwheelbase]

I see lots of Leaf driving around (because I live near Nissan USA Headquarters) but I've never driven one. Thanks for sharing.

[neutron256]

I don't think electric vehicles with long ranges like these will ever be mainstream. The batteries are heavy and expensive. And unlike many other technologies proliferation of these vehicles will only drive the cost up due to scarcity of key elements needed to make the batteries.

My personal opinion is the way of future green cars will be hydrogen. Used in combustion engines or fuel cells it's straightforward to produce, and zero emissions (other then water).

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by neutron256

I don't think electric vehicles with long ranges like these will ever be mainstream. The batteries are heavy and expensive. And unlike many other technologies proliferation of these vehicles will only drive the cost up due to scarcity of key elements needed to make the batteries.

My personal opinion is the way of future green cars will be hydrogen. Used in combustion engines or fuel cells it's straightforward to produce, and zero emissions (other then water).

If it's energy density you're worried about, then you should probably realize that hydrogen sucks in that department too because it has to be contained safely, and the fuel cells or other engine needed to convert hydrogen to mechanical power don't have much mass savings (if any at all) over cars now.

There is a lot of research going into batteries, and there are many proposed types of batteries that improve on energy density by several times, and batteries with increased durability as well. I don't know how much current gasoline powered drivetrains cost, but it is very possible that electric vehicles can become cost competitive in say 15 years.

[GuySmily]

I have big hopes for both. I've seen diy hydrogen injection (hybrid gas-hydrogen) and diy electric conversion.

When my mr2 eventually gives up, I'll probably do an EV conversion myself. I'm looking at 15000usd for batteries alone (100+ mile range LiFePO4), but it'll be a fun project. Hopefully prices drop by the time I'm ready

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by GuySmily

.

You know, I wonder how hard a series hybrid would be to do...seems like a much better way to extend range than dropping thousands on more batteries.

[GuySmily]

Seems a little more complicated to build a hybrid. To me one of the big benefits is no more oil changes, belts, plugs, filters, etc. Maintenance free operation. Plus you need the room to stuff batteries in.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by GuySmily

Seems a little more complicated to build a hybrid. To me one of the big benefits is no more oil changes, belts, plugs, filters, etc. Maintenance free operation. Plus you need the room to stuff batteries in.

I mean, you wouldn't be using the gas engine very much so maintenance would be reduced by a lot. I guess finding a suitable gas engine would be an issue, maybe a CBR250R motor, have the intake cam lift ground down but keep the duration very long and have the cam retarded all the way, and then reduce exhaust duration slightly. Oh and something like 15:1 compression since you're on quasi-Atkinson cycle. That would make for a quiet, extremely lightweight, and efficient generator. Having the throttle sit either wide open or off makes things much simpler too.

[neutron256]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

If it's energy density you're worried about, then you should probably realize that hydrogen sucks in that department too because it has to be contained safely, and the fuel cells or other engine needed to convert hydrogen to mechanical power don't have much mass savings (if any at all) over cars now.

There is a lot of research going into batteries, and there are many proposed types of batteries that improve on energy density by several times, and batteries with increased durability as well. I don't know how much current gasoline powered drivetrains cost, but it is very possible that electric vehicles can become cost competitive in say 15 years.

Energy to volume is a little better with batteries then hydrogen. Energy to weight even including the tank (not talking liquid hydrogen) is better with hydrogen. There is also the recharging vs refueling issue a few minutes with hydrogen, a few hours (at best) with batteries. I don't need as much range if if I can quickly refuel and be on my way.

Both would need infrastructure that doesn't currently exist, and neither are as good as gas when it comes to convience/power/range.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by neutron256

There is also the recharging vs refueling issue a few minutes with hydrogen, a few hours (at best) with batteries. I don't need as much range if if I can quickly refuel and be on my way.

Think outside the box a little, how about standardized replacement battery packs that you can swap out at a charging station?

[GenkiElite]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Think outside the box a little, how about standardized replacement battery packs that you can swap out at a charging station?

Like fork lift batteries. It would have to be a fully automated process that could be pretty expensive to run.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by GenkiElite

Like fork lift batteries. It would have to be a fully automated process that could be pretty expensive to run.

Or there could be battery attendants like there used to be full serve gas stations. Help save the environment AND create (low paying) jobs. Win win.

[neutron256]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Think outside the box a little, how about standardized replacement battery packs that you can swap out at a charging station?

It's an interesting idea, but the logistics of it are probably more then you'd think. Just imagine how many batteries a station would have to store onsite charging to be ready meet their customers needs. Plus the automotive industry is having trouble even coming up with a standard connector for charging EVs think about the nightmare of trying to agree on a standard battery pack.

Car design is already to homogenous. I can't imagine the new levels of boring we'd reach if they all had to accommodate a standard battery pack.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by neutron256

It's an interesting idea, but the logistics of it are probably more then you'd think. Just imagine how many batteries a station would have to store onsite charging to be ready meet their customers needs. Plus the automotive industry is having trouble even coming up with a standard connector for charging EVs think about the nightmare of trying to agree on a standard battery pack.

Car design is already to homogenous. I can't imagine the new levels of boring we'd reach if they all had to accommodate a standard battery pack.

They'd have to store charging time/changing time as many batteries as there are in the cars that stop by. Newer battery designs with better durability can probably be quick charged without hurting the life (obviously has yet to be seen), so if it's like 2 hours vs. say 10 minutes for pumping gas, that's not too unreasonable.

How about a standard small pack? Larger cars can use 2, or 3. Maybe an even smaller one, Corolla/Civic uses 3, a Camry uses 4, and luxobarges/SUV uses 5-6.