Piper Cam Selection

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Scrappydoo

It does seem frustrating even from reading this post. I suspect you are asking a question that nobody has the individual experience or knowledge to answer hence the marked reluctance to actually provide any useful information.

You may just have to suck it and see

CSG does, but the information is proprietary, and reserved for folks getting engines built by CSG.

It's unfortunate, but this level of information just isn't something that can be given away for free; the R&D cost in building multiple sets of heads and engines approach 6 figures, and is used internally for the folks that support CSG.

http://counterspacegarage.com/csg-fa20-4ugse-gt86.html

[bju90]

Originally Posted by twag4

Do you have any knowledge of cam breakage besides the incidence with the German video that is listed on one if these. Threads? Not being snarky, but I have piper cams going in a built engine as we speak. I just want to read about any other issue, as I have seen this statement made before, but am only aware of that incident. I want to know if I bought the wrong brand!

It looks like an isolated case from what I have read. On the other discussion posted it does appear they made some changes to the camshaft at one stage but was a bit vague.

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

@bju90 I am using the stg3 cams in my built motor. The results were disappointing. The shape of the torque curve did not change from stock. Current theory is the intake manifold is the bottleneck.

Pm me if you want more specifics.

I saw your other post. With lowered static compression ratio on the higher duration cam you may have had too large of a negative effect on dynamic compression. I have sent you a PM to get some more details.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111954

Celeks post about the dyno comparison of the 2017 intake manifold could be promising. I wonder if some throttle body spacers to increase plenum volume might make a small difference at high rpm.

If I can get 200+whp (210whp would be nice) and keep the torque from dropping off sharply after the peak and raise the rev limit to 8000 rpm I would be happy.

2017 intake manifold, stage 2 cams and some decent headers to match should hopefully get me where I need to be to be competitive compared to the MX5's already running.

[bju90]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

CSG does, but the information is proprietary, and reserved for folks getting engines built by CSG.

It's unfortunate, but this level of information just isn't something that can be given away for free; the R&D cost in building multiple sets of heads and engines approach 6 figures, and is used internally for the folks that support CSG.

http://counterspacegarage.com/csg-fa20-4ugse-gt86.html

I understand not giving away R&D for free but staying 100% silent is a bit extreme, especially when you are a supplier of the product in question.

A simple response along the lines of people finding the stock manifold to be a limitation and the stage 3 cams might be too aggressive for your setup would have been more than enough information.

I am in Australia, far far away from you. So getting engine work done by CSG is quite impractical. My goals also were for a simple build to get some mild improvements. Therefore investing any further in a full build was not the aim at this stage of the project.

Had you have provided me with some information or guidance then I would have been more than happy to purchase the cams from CSG, fit them to the car and provided the feedback with the set up I had mentioned. This information can then be past on to the rest of the community. Something which could have led to a greater uptake on the Piper cams through CSG both locally and state side. Instead I see no benefit purchasing a product from CSG when they are not willing to provide me any information or guidance on selection of the correct product.

I am not trying to be narky but I just don't see the logic in the route you have chosen. Each to their own I guess.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by bju90

I understand not giving away R&D for free but staying 100% silent is a bit extreme, especially when you are a supplier of the product in question.

A simple response along the lines of people finding the stock manifold to be a limitation and the stage 3 cams might be too aggressive for your setup would have been more than enough information.

I am in Australia, far far away from you. So getting engine work done by CSG is quite impractical. My goals also were for a simple build to get some mild improvements. Therefore investing any further in a full build was not the aim at this stage of the project.

Had you have provided me with some information or guidance then I would have been more than happy to purchase the cams from CSG, fit them to the car and provided the feedback with the set up I had mentioned. This information can then be past on to the rest of the community. Something which could have led to a greater uptake on the Piper cams through CSG both locally and state side. Instead I see no benefit purchasing a product from CSG when they are not willing to provide me any information or guidance on selection of the correct product.

I am not trying to be narky but I just don't see the logic in the route you have chosen. Each to their own I guess.

Most people that order cams are of the "Hey, I want cams from you. Which one should I order?" variety.

Several of those have replied in this thread already.

Engines being shipped around the world is a norm.

Since you want free information, here's a key tidbit for you: If you're not running a standalone, don't bother with cams at all.

[twag4]

I've purchased from CSG, and their customer service is second to none. They also go the extra mile in working out problems and developing a good setup. Just FYI!

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by bju90

I saw your other post. With lowered static compression ratio on the higher duration cam you may have had too large of a negative effect on dynamic compression. I have sent you a PM to get some more details.

If the overall torque was down but the shape of the curve was flatter towards the end of the rpm range (8.2k redline) I would be inclined to agree. But that was not the case. The drop off at the end was the same as tuned stock cams.

[bju90]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Most people that order cams are of the "Hey, I want cams from you. Which one should I order?" variety.

Several of those have replied in this thread already.

Engines being shipped around the world is a norm.

Since you want free information, here's a key tidbit for you: If you're not running a standalone, don't bother with cams at all.

Is that not what I am asking? Title of this thread: "Piper cam selection". I simply wanted to know which cams I should be ordering. I even sent an enquiry through your website mid week asking that question as when I started searching CSG came up as a supplier. No response was given. All I wanted was a point in the direction of which, if any, to order.

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by bju90

Is that not what I am asking? Title of this thread: "Piper cam selection". I simply wanted to know which cams I should be ordering. I even sent an enquiry through your website mid week asking that question as when I started searching CSG came up as a supplier. No response was given. All I wanted was a point in the direction of which, if any, to order.

Hi @bju90, I got an e-mail from an Australian e-mail and I suspect it is you. The e-mail is in work right now but I have been severely preoccupied with a lot of meetings. Your e-mail is regarding Stage 2 and 3 correct? Thanks!

[bju90]

Originally Posted by CSG David

Hi @bju90, I got an e-mail from an Australian e-mail and I suspect it is you. The e-mail is in work right now but I have been severely preoccupied with a lot of meetings. Your e-mail is regarding Stage 2 and 3 correct? Thanks!

Yeah that is me. Since the email I have done a bit more reading and will be using the 2017 intake manifold instead. I think I have detailed the limitation of what regulations let me change in the email. If you can help me make the decision then I am more than happy to send the business your way.

I understand the value of information and want to support those that support me and the community.

If I need to purchase more components to make this worthwhile then I will consider the cost vs. reward in my budget and come to a decision.

[Scrappydoo]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

CSG does, but the information is proprietary, and reserved for folks getting engines built by CSG.

It's unfortunate, but this level of information just isn't something that can be given away for free; the R&D cost in building multiple sets of heads and engines approach 6 figures, and is used internally for the folks that support CSG.

http://counterspacegarage.com/csg-fa20-4ugse-gt86.html

Plonker with an enhanced self importance is what I'm thinking.

You have come across as an arsehole

[Turdinator]

Originally Posted by twag4

Do you have any knowledge of cam breakage besides the incidence with the German video that is listed on one if these. Threads? Not being snarky, but I have piper cams going in a built engine as we speak. I just want to read about any other issue, as I have seen this statement made before, but am only aware of that incident. I want to know if I bought the wrong brand!

I haven't. I had read of people who have looked into it closer being concerned. I haven't looked into it any further as I am not ready to look at cams yet. I just figured it would suck if someone, who unlike OP, bought some cams without doing their due diligence and had no knowledge that their had been at least one failure.

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

@bju90 I am using the stg3 cams in my built motor. The results were disappointing. The shape of the torque curve did not change from stock. Current theory is the intake manifold is the bottleneck.

Pm me if you want more specifics.

Any chance you could post some details or even a dyno sheet here? There is precious little info on the internet about how different cams effect this motor.

[bju90]

Originally Posted by Turdinator

I haven't. I had read of people who have looked into it closer being concerned. I haven't looked into it any further as I am not ready to look at cams yet. I just figured it would suck if someone, who unlike OP, bought some cams without doing their due diligence and had no knowledge that their had been at least one failure.


Any chance you could post some details or even a dyno sheet here? There is precious little info on the internet about how different cams effect this motor.

From what I read on another post that engine was built for FI and was run as NA for a little while. Probably not an indicative comparison NA.

From everything I have read/been told with trying to push more power NA it is the intake holding back the engine at high RPM. Will be interesting to see some results from CAMS/Bolt Ons for the 2017 intake as it appears to shift the peak power to the right slightly. Other than that there doesn't appear to be an affordable intake option on the market.

The engine is pretty well sorted with just bolt ons + E85. Useable torque curve with 200 peak WHP is nothing to complain about... 250+BHP would be nice though.

[celek]

Originally Posted by twag4

Do you have any knowledge of cam breakage besides the incidence with the German video that is listed on one if these. Threads? Not being snarky, but I have piper cams going in a built engine as we speak. I just want to read about any other issue, as I have seen this statement made before, but am only aware of that incident. I want to know if I bought the wrong brand!

Originally Posted by Turdinator

I know this isn't exactly what you have asked but I'll throw it out there as an FYI. Oil pressure on the standard block is known to become unreliable once you go much beyond stock redline. Also do some research on the Piper cams for our engine. There have been reports of camshaft breakages floating around.

Breakage issue was fixed this is why it took me 9 months to get cams. They had redesigned the casting completely

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by bju90

From what I read on another post that engine was built for FI and was run as NA for a little while. Probably not an indicative comparison NA.

From everything I have read/been told with trying to push more power NA it is the intake holding back the engine at high RPM. Will be interesting to see some results from CAMS/Bolt Ons for the 2017 intake as it appears to shift the peak power to the right slightly. Other than that there doesn't appear to be an affordable intake option on the market.

The engine is pretty well sorted with just bolt ons + E85. Useable torque curve with 200 peak WHP is nothing to complain about... 250+BHP would be nice though.

What if you could make the same power without E85? With enough flow (and managed properly), the same power can be achieved with less stress and lesser fuel. Many Subaru enthusiasts would say impossible, except Honda has been doing it for decades already