949 Racing project car - Blub

[949 Racing]

Originally Posted by Clutch Dog

Cant afford Starbucks, friend! 200tw's get pricey


I do it old fashioned way. munch on coffee beans and drink hot water after

You and Chuck Norris

[949 Racing]

Back to the track for more testing tomorrow. Renting Streets of Willow. Final ride height, bump stop validation and a little tire testing while we're at it. I think we are just about ready to set final production spec and start making shocks.

Lead time for actual shocks is shorter than some of the other components in the kit. If I had to guess, and this is just a guess (not a promise!), I think we might be able to start shipping single adjustable kits 3rd week August. ACE (semi-active) kits later in September.

One other detail we have not mentioned much yet is the build in camber adjustability. Depending on clearance your wheel/tire combo allows, the kit will have between 3-5° camber adjustment up front... with OEM upper mounts. This would allow either a mild -1.5 to -2° camber for street/ dual duty or more race oriented -3 to -5° without the need for expensive camber plates. More details to follow.

[ka-titties]

Originally Posted by 949 Racing

Back to the track for more testing tomorrow. Renting Streets of Willow. Final ride height, bump stop validation and a little tire testing while we're at it. I think we are just about ready to set final production spec and start making shocks.

Lead time for actual shocks is shorter than some of the other components in the kit. If I had to guess, and this is just a guess (not a promise!), I think we might be able to start shipping single adjustable kits 3rd week August. ACE (semi-active) kits later in September.

One other detail we have not mentioned much yet is the build in camber adjustability. Depending on clearance your wheel/tire combo allows, the kit will have between 3-5° camber adjustment up front... with OEM upper mounts. This would allow either a mild -1.5 to -2° camber for street/ dual duty or more race oriented -3 to -5° without the need for expensive camber plates. More details to follow.

Assuming the camber adjustment will come from an elongated hole on the lower mount to the spindle? Will there be provisions to set the camber adjustment in place that isn't solely reliant on friction (unlike the cam bolts)? Similar to the PSM example:

[949 Racing]

Originally Posted by ka-titties

Assuming the camber adjustment will come from an elongated hole on the lower mount to the spindle? Will there be provisions to set the camber adjustment in place that isn't solely reliant on friction (unlike the cam bolts)?

Not possible for camber to slip without unbolting things, not a micro-adjust. Full details when we officially launch the kit.

[949 Racing]

Back from another day track testing. Hotter than last time, a bit less windy.

Ran through a few tests with the Street Spring Pack to see how they behaved when deliberately bottomed. This is hitting huge dips and lumps in the track with the car too low and shocks set full soft (20 clicks). Bottoming was controlled and not harsh. Too abrupt as you might imagine but this is to replicate worst case scenario. Dial up shocks halfway to full stiff (10 clicks) and the car was surprisingly fast, bottoming gently on the biggest yumps as they should. Had a 1:26.9 on predictive with 225 Conti ECS but flubbed the last turn so just a 1:27.1 CCW. Still mighty quick, balanced and fun while still having a better than OEM ride.

Next up was the Race Spring Pack on a few different tires, 255/40/17 RE71R, AR-1 and R888R. You know, we really dislike the R888R. That tire does nothing well. Ran the car down to about 137mm pinch weld F&R which is equivalent to about 130mm on OEM size tires (that's low). Too hot to lay down any fast laps but still managed a 1:24.17 in there somewhere.

Same behavior as last test which we did at taller ride height. Down low, the transitional response improved and a bit less dive under braking. Depending on track roughness, we'll probably recommend 130-135mm ride height for smoother tracks and 140-145mm for rough tracks or dual duty. One other detail which is important to us is just where in the shocks adjustment range the car works best. We don't want to need to run full stiff or full soft just to get it to work. We also don't want front and rear wildly different. Either just indicates the useful range is wrong. Rough tracks should be somewhere in the middle settings, going stiffer for smoother tracks or Hoosiers or big aero.

This testing all with the 22mm front bar and Roll Center Adjuster kit which we have settled on. Both will be added to our website shortly. We offer a BGK (Big Grip Kit) for the early Miatas that has all the bits we recommend to get a completely tuned suspension system. This saves having to piece together various bits without knowing how they will work together or how to set them up. We will do the same for the 86: A complete hardware package with every part you need and baseline alignment settings for street, dual duty or competition published on the website. Basically replicating what's on Blub. So one can order just the Xidas to work with what sway bars, links, alignment they have or if you want a carefully researched and tested, proven fast setup in one go, BGK.

[churchx]

949 Racing: slightly curious how well/bad xidas will run in non optimal configurations .. for example, how car will behave with street springs but on grippy track tires .. of course, probably at full-stiff, i wonder how that may behave?
(imagining scenario for someone mostly daily driving, thus choosing street softer springs for that majority of mileage, but with some trackdays thrown in, during which one changes just tires to track set (but leaving shocks/springs same)).
Or maybe for such scenario some "interim" spring set may fit better?

[949 Racing]

Street springs are just that. Optimized for street use on street tires, ok on track with those same street tires. With 255/40 200tw an advanced driver would have to run the shocks full stiff. It just would not be a balanced set up. Acceptable but you would never be amazed by it. Use a narrower more medium grip tire and an acceptable balance can be found on track and it's actually a lot of fun to drive.

An intermediate spring setup would be something that rides firmer than stock but still isn't firm enough for 255/40 200tw tires. So it wouldn't do anything perfectly and be so-so (by our standards) at everything. We try to get people to decide on one use or the other that they wish to optimize for.

But.. if you can't decide which to optimize for and just want to pick something in between then your spring rates would be somewhere in the 200 the 400 range. Our pre-configured spring packs will be far more cost-effective. If you want to do custom rates that's no problem. But that's going to add about $200 to the cost of the kit. If enough folks don't want our spring packs but want some intermediate springs, they would not be optimized for either street or track. If there is enough demand, we might consider a "Sport" spring pack for the second or third batch of shocks at the end of the year. To us that's just sort of a cop out though. We have had so many project cars around the shop over the years that we simply prefer something that's just a serious track rat and perfect there or it's an awesome daily that's acceptable on track.

Compromise is just that, a car that doesn't do anything well and you end up never wanting to drive it. We have been down that road and have learned to simply build optimized tools and just "own" that it won't be great for the other things.

[ka-titties]

Originally Posted by 949 Racing

Back from another day track testing. Hotter than last time, a bit less windy.

Ran through a few tests with the Street Spring Pack to see how they behaved when deliberately bottomed. This is hitting huge dips and lumps in the track with the car too low and shocks set full soft (20 clicks). Bottoming was controlled and not harsh. Too abrupt as you might imagine but this is to replicate worst case scenario. Dial up shocks halfway to full stiff (10 clicks) and the car was surprisingly fast, bottoming gently on the biggest yumps as they should. Had a 1:26.9 on predictive with 225 Conti ECS but flubbed the last turn so just a 1:27.1 CCW. Still mighty quick, balanced and fun while still having a better than OEM ride.

Next up was the Race Spring Pack on a few different tires, 255/40/17 RE71R, AR-1 and R888R. You know, we really dislike the R888R. That tire does nothing well. Ran the car down to about 137mm pinch weld F&R which is equivalent to about 130mm on OEM size tires (that's low). Too hot to lay down any fast laps but still managed a 1:24.17 in there somewhere.

Same behavior as last test which we did at taller ride height. Down low, the transitional response improved and a bit less dive under braking. Depending on track roughness, we'll probably recommend 130-135mm ride height for smoother tracks and 140-145mm for rough tracks or dual duty. One other detail which is important to us is just where in the shocks adjustment range the car works best. We don't want to need to run full stiff or full soft just to get it to work. We also don't want front and rear wildly different. Either just indicates the useful range is wrong. Rough tracks should be somewhere in the middle settings, going stiffer for smoother tracks or Hoosiers or big aero.

This testing all with the 22mm front bar and Roll Center Adjuster kit which we have settled on. Both will be added to our website shortly. We offer a BGK (Big Grip Kit) for the early Miatas that has all the bits we recommend to get a completely tuned suspension system. This saves having to piece together various bits without knowing how they will work together or how to set them up. We will do the same for the 86: A complete hardware package with every part you need and baseline alignment settings for street, dual duty or competition published on the website. Basically replicating what's on Blub. So one can order just the Xidas to work with what sway bars, links, alignment they have or if you want a carefully researched and tested, proven fast setup in one go, BGK.

Pumped for this!

[strat61caster]

So y'all run the car flat (no rake) based on measuring at the pinch welds? Curious as to your thoughts on rake adjustments if any.

[949 Racing]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

So y'all run the car flat (no rake) based on measuring at the pinch welds? Curious as to your thoughts on rake adjustments if any.

We have been running 5mm positive rake so far. That's roughly OEM rake so roll center axis remains as it was designed, provided you have roll center adjusters up front.

Fine tuning balance can be done by raising or lowering rear a few mm. Lower is tighter, higher is looser. Generally recommend keeping rake at +/- 5mm from 5mm positive. So if front is say 140mm, then rear would start at 145mm then adjust down to 140 or up to 150 to fine tune balance. We usually try to get the balance right with springs, sway bars and alignment first though. Rake is usually the last thing we mess with trackside to get that last little bit of precision.

[Westen86]

What would happen if I set these about 1.2" lower than stock and had a set of sway bars with them? Like Whiteline or Racecomp. Would these hit the bump stop consistently being much lower than recommended? The sway bars would help yaw, but is it enough at that height?

Also, what about a lowering top mount that raises the strut about an inch?

I get it. Ultra compliance through suspension travel gives the best grip. And Im all about suspension travel. But those recommended height pictures are so sad. Should I just get the track springs?

[TurboLag23]

Originally Posted by 949 Racing

Street springs are just that. Optimized for street use on street tires, ok on track with those same street tires. With 255/40 200tw an advanced driver would have to run the shocks full stiff. It just would not be a balanced set up. Acceptable but you would never be amazed by it. Use a narrower more medium grip tire and an acceptable balance can be found on track and it's actually a lot of fun to drive.

An intermediate spring setup would be something that rides firmer than stock but still isn't firm enough for 255/40 200tw tires. So it wouldn't do anything perfectly and be so-so (by our standards) at everything. We try to get people to decide on one use or the other that they wish to optimize for.

But.. if you can't decide which to optimize for and just want to pick something in between then your spring rates would be somewhere in the 200 the 400 range. Our pre-configured spring packs will be far more cost-effective. If you want to do custom rates that's no problem. But that's going to add about $200 to the cost of the kit. If enough folks don't want our spring packs but want some intermediate springs, they would not be optimized for either street or track. If there is enough demand, we might consider a "Sport" spring pack for the second or third batch of shocks at the end of the year. To us that's just sort of a cop out though. We have had so many project cars around the shop over the years that we simply prefer something that's just a serious track rat and perfect there or it's an awesome daily that's acceptable on track.

Compromise is just that, a car that doesn't do anything well and you end up never wanting to drive it. We have been down that road and have learned to simply build optimized tools and just "own" that it won't be great for the other things.

This has me super excited - you guys have done an excellent job with the R&D on these!

Question: I am in the crowd who has 17x9's with 245/40R17 BFG Sport Comp 2's. Will stay with this wheel and tire size indefinitely, but may switch compounds in that ~300 treadwear zone. Currently stock everything else, but am strongly considering the suite of mods that basically make up your "Big Grip Pack". My car is a daily primarily, which sees relatively frequent spirited canyon drives and the very occasional autocross. I have zero concerns regarding ride height - a touch lower would look nice but I like being able to get over driveways with zero hassle and these cars look great regardless But for reference on your numbers, what is pinch weld height on OEM suspension?

Given that wheel/tire pairing and prescribed use, would the street spring be the move? Or would you recommend going one step firmer with the springs to account for the larger wheel/tire? I notice that your Miata Xidas have spring options galore - will the 86/BRXidas be the same way?

[949 Racing]

Originally Posted by TurboLag23

This has me super excited - you guys have done an excellent job with the R&D on these!

Question: I am in the crowd who has 17x9's with 245/40R17 BFG Sport Comp 2's. Will stay with this wheel and tire size indefinitely, but may switch compounds in that ~300 treadwear zone. Currently stock everything else, but am strongly considering the suite of mods that basically make up your "Big Grip Pack". My car is a daily primarily, which sees relatively frequent spirited canyon drives and the very occasional autocross. I have zero concerns regarding ride height - a touch lower would look nice but I like being able to get over driveways with zero hassle and these cars look great regardless But for reference on your numbers, what is pinch weld height on OEM suspension?

Given that wheel/tire pairing and prescribed use, would the street spring be the move? Or would you recommend going one step firmer with the springs to account for the larger wheel/tire? I notice that your Miata Xidas have spring options galore - will the 86/BRXidas be the same way?

Decision comes down to:
Equal or better than OEM ride quality - Street Spring Pack
or
Max grip, who cares about spilled latte's - Race Spring Pack

Both handle better than stock, Street springs run out of rate for the grippiest tires. Race springs perfect for the grippiest tires.

3rd option is custom rates of your choice which would add roughly $200 to kit.

OEM pinch weld height on OEM tires is 150/165mm depending on year/brand/model. This assumes OEM tires. Most track rats run a taller 25" 255/40/17 vs the OEM 24.5" 215/45/17

[949 Racing]

To answer the basic question of ride height, I have to deconstruct it. You are assuming lower might make it faster. We have seen here that an 86 with 255/40/17 and -2.5° to -4° front camber on 17x9 simply doesn't have much available room for tire to move upwards. This is the limit of bump travel, not the shocks. Pro level race tracks like Laguna Seca and COTA are really smooth. One can get away with really stiff and low setups. The reality is and you must asborb this ... these are not what we tune for because that's not what our customers actually drive on most weekends. The average club racing track is underfunded, rough, has pavement patches, different shaped kerbs around the tracks and is only slightly less bumpy than a public road. Why are we talking about this? Because tuning for that real world means retaining sufficient bump travel for a real street driven 86, half tank and 190lb driver (2900lbs) for this typical club track.

While taller ride heights aren't sexy, they are what's fast when the platform is an 86 on 255/40 with extra camber and OEM fender liners. You want slammed, look elsewhere. You want shocks capable of winning ST5 at NASA nationals at Mid Ohio in a few months, we have you covered. We have won two national championships and set three lap records on that track

If you read back through our earlier posts, you will see that the Xidas are engineered to allow the tire to move up as far as possible before hitting something. All Xida applications do this. Add offset or extended mounts and you'll be slamming your tires into the tub and breaking things.

Sway bars

Ask yourself why you are using the exact sway bar diameters you have on the car now. Did you try various sizes, collect data, tire temps, gps/accelerometer data or just pick something off website because some vendors cut/pasted ad copy from the sway bar manufacturer and you believed it?

98% of all aftermarket sway bars are "engineered" like this

1. Mfr shows up at SEMA to see new platform
2. Mfr gets OEM sway bar diameters and CAD drawing from SEMA to design new bars
3. Mfr add's some random fixed percentage diameter to front and rear bar. If OEM is mm, they round up to least expensive existing bar stock diameter in inches. That's why most aftermarket bars are in 1/8" increments.
4. Mfr's add same percentage front and rear, which completely disregards the fact that adding 2mm to a 10mm bar is 110% stiffer. Increasing a 20mm to 22mm is roughly 45% increase.

This means that everything else being equal, the typical non-engineered/ non-track tested aftermarket sway bar kit is going to shift the roll couple bias drastically towards the rear. Oversteer, in case the double speak lost you.

This is often complemented by the vast majority of beginner and intermediate level HPDE drivers who have yet to master brake release. Brake release is how a fast advanced level driver rotates a car into a turn with all four tires sliding a tiny bit. The intermediate driver can't do this yet so the car understeers even when set up perfectly. This cause the beginner and intermediate driver to hold the opinion that "my car pushes" and wishes to loose it up. Advanced driver hops in, goes 2s faster and says the car is a "a bit loose".

In general, any production car will need far more front roll stiffness than rear as grip is added with big sticky tires. So the exact opposite of the typical aftermarket matched sway bar kit.

As a shop with two pro level drivers on the development staff, this is always a hurdle for us when it comes to marketing. We know whats fast, sets lap records and wins national championships. But it often conflicts with the vast ocean of bad information and empty marketing hype floating around on the interweb.

So yes, we are crushing lap records with a relatively small 22mm front bar and stock rear and we aren't slammed. You decide how you want to set up your car based on regurgugitated marketing hype or actual on track R&D with a shop that has engineered and driven cars to 8 national championships and maybe 25 lap records across the country.

To answer your basic question, if that's what you are asking: "How do I get low so it looks cool?" Order the Race Spring Pack.

If you want even lower for hardparking, you'll have to accept your tires bottoming into the fender liners if you drive it too fast.

If you already have it in your mind that it won't "look right" or "be a real race setup" unless it's lower than we recommend, you will just have to trust us. I know that's a big ask and we're accustomed to that. It's why I'm here going through all this technical mumbo jumbo trying to paint a clearer picture for those that are still learning this stuff. You got questions, ask away!