FRS vs Camaro Handling

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by glamcem

He doesn't seem to care about it and rather stick to his fanboyism.

but YOU are the troll, not me. Nor am I a fanboy.

I'll take a C7 corvette as a starter over the frs all day long, the camaro, not so much...I almost bought a '12 z06, yes a c6, a couple of years ago because I could have gotten it for 35K. That, is a better deal than a modded twin for sure, you aren't going to get z06 performance with 10K in mods on an 86.

Also, you guys have a hard time separating modified from stock. Those numbers from motor trend are based on both cars being stock. Not ONCE have I claimed that a stock 86 is better handling than a stock ss 1le.

Jaden

I shouldn't feed you, the troll, but I won't stand by while someone uses invalid logic in their arguments.

[totopo]

I think a big problem is that still no one has defined handling even though it was brought up fairly early on.

I think if you are talking about the ability to form traction in a circuit track conditions, then camaro handily wins. The twins were made for fun, not performance. The suspension geometry and chasis just aren't that great for track purposes. Their times are just about what you expect for their weight/power, if not slightly less. I.e. a similarly powered s2k will spank it up and down the track.

If you are talking purely about tossability and dealing with transitions, it becomes a more competitive thing, with all the extra weight the camaro carries. But fat tires and chassis design goes a long way to help.

Then the big factor is the "fun" factor. How the car reacts to your imputs and how it was made to feel. This is more or less what the 86 was designed to do. But the camaro as well. I think for this super super subjective definition, it depends on the driver. Some drivers find it more fun to be able to chuck it wherever and fix the line easily no matter where they end up. Some people love the massive traction and stability and fat tires and the ability to get on the gas early and rocket out of turns. I think it's kind of pointless to argue about this on an internet forum. For OP, you guys should just drive each other's cars with an open mind and see what you think.

[Denver1LE]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I do NOT refute those tests, nor did I claim anything that those tests countermand.

A stock 86 does not appear to out handle a stock ss 1le.

dollar for dollar up to the cost of a stock ss 1le, I do not believe an ss 1le can outperform an 86 in ANY way depending on who's spending the money to modify the 86.

Anyone can spend a butt load of money and not get much performance gain, that isn't the same thing as what I'm stating though.

Jaden

Ok, but the original intent of the thread is not "My BRZ that I dumped $20K into after buying it will out handle your just off the lot stock SS 1LE".

anyone can modify.

anyway, have fun with your BRZ.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Denver1LE

Ok, but the original intent of the thread is not "My BRZ that I dumped $20K into after buying it will out handle your just off the lot stock SS 1LE".

anyone can modify.

anyway, have fun with your BRZ.

Different people are arguing different things here.

It's asinine to compare a stock for stock 45K car to a 26K car. When I brought that up I was told that it isn't a stock for stock comparison. Ok, then what is the comparison?

Is it dollar for dollar? Is it just handling or overall performance? Is it both those things? These are ALL different questions with different answers.

Is it a 260 whp 86 versus a 400whp camaro with an add on package for performance?

Again, that's an asinine comparison when the first question is, which handles better.

how do you define handling? is it average skid pad? I still haven't seen the skid pad on an 86 with 275 rcomp rubber. You can fit 275 rcomp rubber on an otherwise stock frs.

That and decent coils will still put you 14K under the price of an ss 1le and I would bet dollars to donuts that the 86 will put down better average G's just with that.

Jaden

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Jaden

The power to weight ratio on an 86 with 390 whp is going to be higher than the camaro...so the straights will favor the 86 also.

Jaden

Eh..... depends on setup. Seen some 400 hp twins with peaky torque curves only 320 ft lb peak torque

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Different people are arguing different things here.

It's asinine to compare a stock for stock 45K car to a 26K car. When I brought that up I was told that it isn't a stock for stock comparison. Ok, then what is the comparison?

Is it dollar for dollar? Is it just handling or overall performance? Is it both those things? These are ALL different questions with different answers.

Is it a 260 whp 86 versus a 400whp camaro with an add on package for performance?

Again, that's an asinine comparison when the first question is, which handles better.

how do you define handling? is it average skid pad? I still haven't seen the skid pad on an 86 with 275 rcomp rubber. You can fit 275 rcomp rubber on an otherwise stock frs.

That and decent coils will still put you 14K under the price of an ss 1le and I would bet dollars to donuts that the 86 will put down better average G's just with that.

Jaden

275 comp rubber on an otherwise stock frs? Do you have pics of this setup?

[Denver1LE]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Different people are arguing different things here.

It's asinine to compare a stock for stock 45K car to a 26K car. When I brought that up I was told that it isn't a stock for stock comparison. Ok, then what is the comparison?

Is it dollar for dollar? Is it just handling or overall performance? Is it both those things? These are ALL different questions with different answers.

Is it a 260 whp 86 versus a 400whp camaro with an add on package for performance?

Again, that's an asinine comparison when the first question is, which handles better.

how do you define handling? is it average skid pad? I still haven't seen the skid pad on an 86 with 275 rcomp rubber. You can fit 275 rcomp rubber on an otherwise stock frs.

That and decent coils will still put you 14K under the price of an ss 1le and I would bet dollars to donuts that the 86 will put down better average G's just with that.

Jaden

Sorry, read post #19, (It may take longer than 2 seconds though) the dollar amounts of the cars that the SS 1LE can and does compare to (on those tests) are astounding. So, a $45K 1LE hangin with a $219K car.

I do agree that the comparison between SS 1LE and BRZ is asinine, but for different reasons other than dollar amount, but again the context is a BRZ owner stating the BRZ can "out handle the 1LE all day".

good luck with your BRZ, it's a great looking and fun to drive car!

[Twinz]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Not sure, "on the limit" and, "auto cross course" can be used in the same sentence.

I am.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Not sure, "on the limit" and, "auto cross course" can be used in the same sentence.

Hah, go try one. Parking lots and <30mph stereotypes don't apply anymore.
Some courses are downright boring for momentum cars like the 86, flat foot through a 'slalom' at 60+ mph.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzUKoBKFkHk"]2016 SCCA National Tour Crows Landing Day 2 - YouTube[/ame]

[Tokay444]

I have enough real tracks in my vicinity that I'll never need to try one.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

I have enough real tracks in my vicinity that I'll never need to try one.

Open lapping isn't the end all be all, turn 6 will never change, to each their own. I'll take a fresh course every weekend and tight competition.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by totopo

I think if you are talking about the ability to form traction in a circuit track conditions, then camaro handily wins. The twins were made for fun, not performance. The suspension geometry and chasis just aren't that great for track purposes.

There is nothing wrong with the geometry or the chassis. The main issue is that in the US and other regions it is sold under a basic or "premium" spec. The real performance versions (tuned by STI) were never sold outside Japan. If someone wants to have a good performance from day one, then it is true that our cars are not the best available option. Tuning your car is the other solution, but it is a very difficult task because you can ruin the whole package. Overall, you can find tons of information over here, but usually without focusing on a complete solution. The other best option is to replicate the changes that have been done in the Japanese performance versions and maybe advance a bit more. There are topics that focus on this and we know the complete details of the changed parts and how to find them.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

There is nothing wrong with the geometry or the chassis. The main issue is that in the US and other regions it is sold under a basic or "premium" spec. The real performance versions (tuned by STI) were never sold outside Japan. If someone wants to have a good performance from day one, then it is true that our cars are not the best available option. Tuning your car is the other solution, but it is a very difficult task because you can ruin the whole package. Overall, you can find tons of information over here, but usually without focusing on a complete solution. The other best option is to replicate the changes that have been done in the Japanese performance versions and maybe advance a bit more. There are topics that focus on this and we know the complete details of the changed parts and how to find them.

I agree with you for the most part. I think the part of the reason why the performance variant (BRZ STI and whatnot) is not available in the US is because the cost. In Japan, and Europe (and for most countries) higher displacement engine is very costly, it's not very uncommon to pay $3-4k taxes annually for a V8 engine which is not the case here in the U.S. That means JDM or EDM market can get away with the higher price tag of the smaller engine cars but if you try to sell a BRZ for almost $40k in the U.S. it might not work because of the competition. For a very limited amount of cars this may not be an issue such as Mugen Type R ..etc since there will be always some collector who's willing to pay for it.


Although the OP was about SS 1LE vs FRS/BRZ handling, dollar for dollar, stock vs stock even the entry level V6 Camaros provide better handling out of the box these days. If someone told me this say like 5-10 years ago, I think I would just laugh at them but it's now true, they definitely came a long way. So "bigger, heavier, muscle car that cannot turn" streotype is not true anymore. Of course the cost of consumables will not be anything like Miata but that's also changing these days with the amount of aftermarket wheels, tires and brakes options out there nowadays.
http://www.motortrend.com/news/2016-...t-test-review/

I still like the idea of lighter cars as long as they have enough power the keep the power/weight ratio in check (something like 10lbs/hp or less) but it's just a personal opinion of course.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by glamcem

Although the OP was about SS 1LE vs FRS/BRZ handling, dollar for dollar, stock vs stock even the entry level V6 Camaros provide better handling out of the box these days.

Hey man, might've missed my post since tagging people doesn't always work on this forum, but any thoughts on what I wrote earlier?

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=155