Car and Driver is F-ing Stupid

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

I experienced the transition from the drafting board to the computer. .

As did I, except I resisted. I saw even simple drafting as just as much an art as design, and so I never embraced software until well after it had completely overtaken the industry. Still, nothing is as satisfying as a t-square and templates. lol

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

It was a major influence.

That, I don't dispute.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by venturaII

Still, nothing is as satisfying as a t-square and templates. lol

As I work through my umpteenth mass data migration to the next shiny new system, my colleagues hear me repeat my mantra "Paper and pencil will never become obsolete."

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

As I work through my umpteenth mass data migration to the next shiny new system, my colleagues hear me repeat my mantra "Paper and pencil will never become obsolete."

+1^ Ha! I've been in primary and secondary storage for 20 years now. It's a daily occurrence.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by venturaII

+1^ Ha! I've been in primary and secondary storage for 20 years now. It's a daily occurrence.

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by Toroll

Congratulations you have a fully paid beautiful car. Now I know why you hate this article so much. If something boosted comes in the future, your Limited version won't be the best version anymore. I really hope and pray next year, they will release a boosted version just for you to feel bad.

I don't really care for having the best version or not to be honest. The BRZ has given me zero issues in the last 3 years which is quite refreshing. It's more than fast enough for daily street use these days (traffic is quite bad compare to 20 years ago).

I came from a higher torque but unreliable turbo car (MkV Golf GTI) and I wanted to go back to having an NA engine in a Japanese product with a low driving position. The BRZ is much faster in the corners, and not that much slower in the straight line if you put in the effort to drive it properly. The only downside is the lower overall build quality made to a price point.

The best version existed for years in Japan, it's called the BRZ tS.

Older cars with cable throttle and hydraulic power steering have a much better feel than modern cars imo. Old Honda low slung cockpits and fast revving engines with double wishbone suspension are hard to beat.

Hope you continue to enjoy your MR-S for years to come.

[Cal3000]

Everyone beats off to the Miata. What makes it so immune?

[chaoskaze]

Originally Posted by krayzie

Older cars with cable throttle and hydraulic power steering have a much better feel than modern cars imo.

With that said, there are cable throttle mod for our car for like 400 buck...But would you do it? Just saw one of those poping up & it's giving me a thought.....

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by chaoskaze

With that said, there are cable throttle mod for our car for like 400 buck...But would you do it? Just saw one of those poping up & it's giving me a thought.....

Link?

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by Toroll

Congratulations you have a fully paid beautiful car. Now I know why you hate this article so much. If something boosted comes in the future, your Limited version won't be the best version anymore. I really hope and pray next year, they will release a boosted version just for you to feel bad.

This is literally the only logical explanation that I've been able to come up with for people rabidly defending the lack of forced induction or real power in these.

There is absolutely no reasonable argument for why these cars should only come with low levels of power. Mustang/Camaro/Challenger, Supra, 300ZX, MR2, Genesis coupe, and Impreza/Lancer are just a few of the cars historically offered in a slower base model and one or more faster models as an option. Even Miata, the poster child for this "slow car fast" rhetoric, offered a turbo speed one that wasn't that fast stock but could be tuned fairly easily. Now Fiat has the 124, which can make 200 wheel with nothing more than an ECU reflash.

I own a regular NA8 miata. My brother has one with a jackson racing supercharger. Given the choice, I'll take his car every time because since it isn't making enormous power levels to where it does nothing but spin the tires, it is in fact, more fun. Also, because it is only making a modest power increase, there has not been one single problem with his car related to power breaking parts or any of the other nonsense that people try to say.

The fact is that this car could, and should, be offered in TRD/STI trim with a turbo making the same power levels as a new WRX, and they could do it for under 35 grand. The take rate would probably be less than 20 percent but they would sell. It doesn't mean the regular version is not a great car but I think that other than hurting the feelings of some cry babies, adding more options would be a positive step and a good thing.

[Da Brz]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

This is literally the only logical explanation that I've been able to come up with for people rabidly defending the lack of forced induction or real power in these.

I can see both sides of the argument, but yes, I've seen some things said about the 86 that are just ridiculous.


Things that make me scratch my head:


1. "Oh, you want more power so you can get to 60 .0002 seconds faster, lol."


2. "If the car had any more power, you'd be in jail."


3. "You'll never have enough power to satisfy everyone."



1. Power isn't just about running it up to 60. It's about romping from stop light to stop light. Or passing. Or donuts. Or getting on it whenever you feel like it. Or, yes, just getting to the speed limit. With my BRZ, I have to have some twisties around with no traffic to have fun. With my Mustang, the fun is there all the time.


2. This is untrue as for me, personally, the BRZ has encouraged me to go WAY too fast through some fun turns where I probably shouldn't be doing that. Fast cars are fast cars; it doesn't matter if they accelerate fast or handle fast.


3. Sure there's always going to be people who want more power. That's why we have these cars. We mod them and tinker with them. But if we all just sat back and had this attitude, we'd all still be driving Model T's because "why give us more? Someone's always gonna just want more."

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by Cal3000

Everyone beats off to the Miata. What makes it so immune?

The Miata is faster and lighter.

[unhappymeal]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

The fact is that this car could, and should, be offered in TRD/STI trim with a turbo making the same power levels as a new WRX, and they could do it for under 35 grand. The take rate would probably be less than 20 percent but they would sell. It doesn't mean the regular version is not a great car but I think that other than hurting the feelings of some cry babies, adding more options would be a positive step and a good thing.

I always see this refrain and I have to ask, what is your basis that it'd cost less than $35k? If you look at other RWD coupes--370Z, Genesis, Mustang and Camaro--you realize they have enormous economies of scale going for them.

-370Z is on a platform that underpins Infinitis and the VQ37HR is also shared with Infinitis.
-Genesis was a unique platform, but the 2.0T was lifted straight out of the Mitsubishi parts bin and the 3.8 was used in a bunch of other Hyundais.
-Mustang is also a unique platform, but the Coyote has been in development for god knows how long and the Mustang sells order of magnitudes more than the BRZ.
-Camaro sits on a platform shared across Cadillac. The 2.0T is a refinement of the LNF developed way back for the Cobalt SS, HHR SS and Sky roadster. The 3.6 V6 is a warmed over engine that sits in everything from Malibus to Cadillacs. Lastly, the V8 is sourced from Corvettes and the design itself is used in GM trucks--it's also been around for 150 years.

Where do you propose that Subaru and Toyota find the same economies of scale to bring a BRZ STi down to a price point competitive with the above cars? The chassis is unique and would require further reinforcement. Drivetrain? That came out of a Matrix XR and is near its limits. Engine? The EJ25 wouldn't fit nor would the EZ36. The FA20DIT is laggy with a garbage top end. It would need to be significantly re-worked to suit the character of the car and even then it would still probably be laggy. Look at the work that Porsche did on their B4 family of engines (oversquare so it will rev, variable geometry turbos, electronically controlling the by-pass valve and throttle on lift so boost isn't lost, etc.) and journalists still hate it.

On top of the chassis, drive train and engine issues, they would still need more expensive wheels, tires and brakes. Sure, they could raid the WRX/WRX STi parts bin, but it wouldn't be cheap. All that work for what? To sell a couple thousand more BRZs and GT86s per year? Toyoda had a hard enough time convincing Subaru to build the BRZ. Good luck convincing them to give up more capacity at Gunma for a BRZ STi when they are already capacity strained and North America's (the World's?) fastest growing brand.

Edit #1: I forgot to add the costs of federalizing the car. A new engine, power train and reinforced chassis would be considered a variant so they'd have to spend millions federalizing a BRZ STi.'
Edit #2: I also forgot about the weight penalty. It takes 350 lbs to go from an Impreza to a WRX. Would you want a 3,100 - 3,200 lb BRZ?

[unhappymeal]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

The Miata is faster and lighter.

It's also been around forever and has few, if any, direct competitors. Want a an affordable, light weight, 2 seat convertible? Your option is pretty much a Miata or something at least a decade old on the used car market.

[Da Brz]

Originally Posted by unhappymeal

I always see this refrain and I have to ask, what is your basis that it'd cost less than $35k? If you look at other RWD coupes--370Z, Genesis, Mustang and Camaro--you realize they have enormous economies of scale going for them.

-370Z is on a platform that underpins Infinitis and the VQ37HR is also shared with Infinitis.
-Genesis was a unique platform, but the 2.0T was lifted straight out of the Mitsubishi parts bin and the 3.8 was used in a bunch of other Hyundais.
-Mustang is also a unique platform, but the Coyote has been in development for god knows how long and the Mustang sells order of magnitudes more than the BRZ.
-Camaro sits on a platform shared across Cadillac. The 2.0T is a refinement of the LNF developed way back for the Cobalt SS, HHR SS and Sky roadster. The 3.6 V6 is a warmed over engine that sits in everything from Malibus to Cadillacs. Lastly, the V8 is sourced from Corvettes and the design itself is used in GM trucks--it's also been around for 150 years.

Where do you propose that Subaru and Toyota find the same economies of scale to bring a BRZ STi down to a price point competitive with the above cars? The chassis is unique and would require further reinforcement. Drivetrain? That came out of a Matrix XR and is near its limits. Engine? The EJ25 wouldn't fit nor would the EZ36. The FA20DIT is laggy with a garbage top end. It would need to be significantly re-worked to suit the character of the car and even then it would still probably be laggy. Look at the work that Porsche did on their turboed H4 and journalists still hate it.

On top of the chassis, drive train and engine issues, they would still need more expensive wheels, tires and brakes. Sure, they could raid the WRX/WRX STi parts bin, but it wouldn't be cheap. All that work for what? To sell a couple thousand more BRZs and GT86s per year? Toyoda had a hard enough time convincing Subaru to build the BRZ. Good luck convincing them to give up more capacity at Gunma for a BRZ STi when they are already capacity strained and North America's (the World's?) fastest growing brand.

Edit: I forgot to add the costs of federalizing the car. A new engine, power train and reinforced chassis would be considered a variant so they'd have to spend millions federalizing a BRZ STi.

I think that's all just excuses. Toyota itself huge. They have the FA20DIT and it may be laggy but it's probably better than the FA20. I don't see how it could be worse.


I could also argue with your statement about GM's info up there, but it'd be outside the scope of this argument.


I guess some people just see the world as half empty. I see it as half full. TRD already has a supercharger for it. There's no way Toyota couldn't figure it out.


I understand all your points and they're all valid. But they're also speculative. As all of this is, I guess.


To me, they're stuck in a loop. As you said, it's a low-volume car, so maybe they don't wanna spend the money on it. But then again, "no power" for better or for worse is the monkey on this cars back in the public's eyes. If this car suddenly started eating Mustangs and Camaros, people might take notice and buy more. It really would become the poor man's Cayman.