OEM Big Brake Kit

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Same pistons in our 2 pots as their 2 pots - we have the same caliper (albeit with a different bleeder port orientation) and rotor as they do.

Yeah I know that I just wasn't sure if it was changed from the older WRX days to current WRX.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by 86viper

My driving is not important here. Nor do you know the conditions or reasons or places i was. As i have more power than stock the time spent getting to those speeds is less. Its not every weekend obviously as well. Im not talking race style, but after 3 stops in a few mins the brakes were fading badly.

Anyways, it is neither the fluid boiling or the pads. The aftermarket pads are at the thermal limits as are the stock rotors.

The OEM brakes even with upgraded pads and lines are just not upto spirited street driving and are defiantly not upto track work.

Does the average person need a 6 piston 350mm Brembo kit? Of course not. Do i even need that? Probably not. But something in between would be nice.

So it is pad fade? If you are reaching their limits and glazing.. that's pad fade. The job of the rotor is to hold and remove that heat. I HIGHLY doubt you are making them glow on the street, let alone pushing them past that to failure.

Anyways, lots of us (including myself) have been far more abusive to the OEM components that the usage you are describing and it's easily improved with real pads and real fluid. I've delaminated the front rotors on track and I still would never upgrade to a BBK for street use unless I wanted it for looks.. and I really don't give a crap about cosmetic mods.

Lines don't have anything to do with this conversation.

And yes, your driving style does have a lot to do with how well brakes hold up.

Do what you want though.

[86viper]

Ok

I have aftermarket pads - DS2500's
I have proper fluid - Motul
I have S/S lines - Not as important overall as you said

The FIRST time i stop, it stops just fine, the second time, fine again, the 3rd fine as well but by 10-15mins into some spirited driving, it does not stop as well. Its probably pads, but at the end of the day, there is too much heat to dissipate.

I hope into my other car, it has larger but still OEM Brembo's, Do the same thing. They do not fade, at all on the street. My 86 brakes do.

So after changing all that out, the next logical step is larger rotors with a better cooling design. A full BBK? Not always, but a upgrade from the OEM stuff for sure.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by 86viper

I don't even track my car much and this just isn't true.

A day in the hills driving with a bunch of supercars and trying to pull it up from 100+mph multiple times all i got was fade.

Bigger brakes with more thermal area might not make you stop any faster in a single stop, but it will on the 2nd and more, which is what happens on the street every weekend.

Braking power != thermal capacity, did you even read my post?

Braking power = can you lock up the tires (or engage ABS)
Thermal capacity = can the system shed enough heat to keep things from fading.

As for the fade you're getting, what fluid and pads are you running? What tires? HP is basically irrelevant, what is important is how much grip you have, how much you're slowing the car down, and how much time between stops.

A BBK with the same compound pads as stock will fade just as quick as stock, what most people don't realize when buying a BBK is that they're also getting much better than stock pads as part of the package.

*edit* - saw your update on which pads, those are still street pads and not that aggressive at all. That said, I have the same pads and call BS on them fading that fast on the street unless you're riding the pedal way too much. I've tracked mine and it handles 15 minute lapping sessions just fine with sticky tires and lots of braking.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by 86viper

Ok

I have aftermarket pads - DS2500's
I have proper fluid - Motul
I have S/S lines - Not as important overall as you said

The FIRST time i stop, it stops just fine, the second time, fine again, the 3rd fine as well but by 10-15mins into some spirited driving, it does not stop as well. Its probably pads, but at the end of the day, there is too much heat to dissipate.

I hope into my other car, it has larger but still OEM Brembo's, Do the same thing. They do not fade, at all on the street. My 86 brakes do.

So after changing all that out, the next logical step is larger rotors with a better cooling design. A full BBK? Not always, but a upgrade from the OEM stuff for sure.

I've never run DS2500s but have run DS3000s (albeit on the track) and was not happy with them. I only ran them because I was out of good pads. They feel soft, wear quickly and fade on track. I switched back to CL pads once Essex sent me some. This wasn't on the 86 though, I've never used Ferodos on my BRZ.

I still find it incredibly hard to believe that 3 stops in 10-15 minutes is going to result in ANY pad or fluid fade even with 100% stock components. After bleeding the shit OEM fluid (with factory air bubbles) I could do 10-15 minutes on track with stock pads without issues - And plenty of others here have done so....

[86viper]

To be fair we are talking 15+ mins of running 2nd and 3rd gear with hard hard stops. Its obviously not the "normal" braking it gets on a daily basis but every now and then.

What can i tell you, they faded. Perhaps i need even better pads.

I am still considering my options hence why i came to this thread

[yomny]

Racing brake also offers the two piece rotor for $300 more. The only drawback I see with this is for the price of this kit plus their forged 4pot caliper you're already in bbk price range. I think AP sprint kit is cheaper(I know it's smaller).

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by 86viper

To be fair we are talking 15+ mins of running 2nd and 3rd gear with hard hard stops. Its obviously not the "normal" braking it gets on a daily basis but every now and then.

What can i tell you, they faded. Perhaps i need even better pads.

I am still considering my options hence why i came to this thread

Ask questions instead of arguing with people that know more than you do? From my experience, the DS2500 is barely better than stock pads if that. I certainly don't see them as an upgrade worthy of spending money on.

[Guillaume]

Originally Posted by 86viper

To be fair we are talking 15+ mins of running 2nd and 3rd gear with hard hard stops. Its obviously not the "normal" braking it gets on a daily basis but every now and then.

What can i tell you, they faded. Perhaps i need even better pads.

I am still considering my options hence why i came to this thread

I used to run DS2500. It's not enough for track use, IMO. I now run Carbotech XP10s, much better. Still DDable, though.

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

After bleeding the shit OEM fluid (with factory air bubbles) I could do 10-15 minutes on track with stock pads without issues - And plenty of others here have done so....

If you remove the factory air bubbles, will Subaru void the warranty on the brakes?

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Remove abs fuse

And a car brakes worse in abs so to keep it at the edge with more front bias means the rears are doing less. ABS on the track isn't really a goal.

i dont think its as black and white as that. abs has pros and cons and a street use designed abs is going to have more cons than a performance abs. abs should be designed to keep each individual tire closer to the limit without locking up. does it? sometimes. either way, abs is a great way to keep from locking up wheels while trail braking or braking over bumps. in a hot lap scenario, i can definitely see no abs potentially being slightly faster than oem abs but in a longer race, or in a scenario where i have to pay for my tires, or on a track where there are very busy decreasing radius corners and loads are continually changing, abs can have some serious advantages. definitely not my area of expertise though.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i dont think its as black and white as that. abs has pros and cons and a street use designed abs is going to have more cons than a performance abs. abs should be designed to keep each individual tire closer to the limit without locking up. does it? sometimes. either way, abs is a great way to keep from locking up wheels while trail braking or braking over bumps. in a hot lap scenario, i can definitely see no abs potentially being slightly faster than oem abs but in a longer race, or in a scenario where i have to pay for my tires, or on a track where there are very busy decreasing radius corners and loads are continually changing, abs can have some serious advantages. definitely not my area of expertise though.

It also causes more brake wear (just like TCS). We don't run it on the endurance car, and no race car should have it (to be predictable during spins/two in events if nothing else) but I've never found ABS usage to be faster and based on data laps where I've tried to be at the edge I am always faster if I don't use it, even on a bumpy ass track like sebring. It's certainly easier and less fatiguing to just slam the pedal though

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

If you remove the factory air bubbles, will Subaru void the warranty on the brakes?

lol I took care of that for them by swapping out the parts up front anyways

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Yeah I know that I just wasn't sure if it was changed from the older WRX days to current WRX.

The rotor is very slightly different in the late model WRX, but for all intents and purposes it's the same and interchangeable on both that platform and this one.