CSG and RCE tag-team suspension Q&A thread! Ask us anything!

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Gearhead1

Not sure about cheaper. RacerX adjustable LCA's list for $579. Raceseng's camber plates are $420 plus the cost of coilovers, correct?

You're buying coilovers too? How would they change your overall price when comparing the LCA to the camber plate? Unless you mean the spring perch and specific nuts, yeah the Cascams come out to $620 for OE suspension. $25 cheaper for a non 90mm spring perch. This could also mean you can reduce the camber from the camber bolts and take out the wheel spacers.

You're leaving out the ball joints for the LCA's, swapping over the OE is whatever labor costs (and fingers crossed you don't damage them in the process), having RacerX provide them brings it up to $743 according to their website.

Shits complicated yo, just wanted to point out that the Cascams are very close to what you want as an off the shelf solution without cutting and welding on your chassis, ordering custom parts, ordering parts that you don't know if they will fit, or significantly sacrificing NVH (mine passed the gf test, nobody but me could tell I had camber plates in).

And on the increased caster front:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118314
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74300

[SStratos]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

I haven't tried them yet, but I would like to give them a shot. I've heard really good things and I may go for it in a month or so when I buy new wheels for my next car.

- Andrew

What's your next car going to be?

Looking forward to your review :-)

[Gearhead1]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

You're buying coilovers too? How would they change your overall price when comparing the LCA to the camber plate? Unless you mean the spring perch and specific nuts, yeah the Cascams come out to $620 for OE suspension. $25 cheaper for a non 90mm spring perch. This could also mean you can reduce the camber from the camber bolts and take out the wheel spacers.

You're leaving out the ball joints for the LCA's, swapping over the OE is whatever labor costs (and fingers crossed you don't damage them in the process), having RacerX provide them brings it up to $743 according to their website.

Shits complicated yo, just wanted to point out that the Cascams are very close to what you want as an off the shelf solution without cutting and welding on your chassis, ordering custom parts, ordering parts that you don't know if they will fit, or significantly sacrificing NVH (mine passed the gf test, nobody but me could tell I had camber plates in).

And on the increased caster front:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118314
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74300

First, thank you for the good feedback. You are right on about pricing, the NVH feedback is very helpful, and I was not aware of the potential power steering issue.

I am going to stay with OE springs and I thought that meant only a small range of adjustment available from camber plates. You say you got +1 degree caster with the CasCams. Was there any gain in negative camber available at the same time? In my case, I need a degree of camber to get rid of the wheel spacers; I'm trying to understand if I can get that plus some positive caster with OE springs.

I'd be interested in the same feedback on RCE (or any other) camber plates as well, although I suspect the limitations are similar on all.

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by Gforce

the BRZ starts at 18 in CG height so dropping even two inches in ride height isn't making much difference

You see, this is where you are wrong. If you think a change of 1 inch in CG has no significant impact on handling, you have no business talking about handling.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Gearhead1

You say you got +1 degree caster with the CasCams. Was there any gain in negative camber available at the same time? In my case, I need a degree of camber to get rid of the wheel spacers; I'm trying to understand if I can get that plus some positive caster with OE springs.

The caster adjustment on the Cascam camber plates has little impact on your available camber, they are separate adjustments on this part. I was able to run approximately -3.2 degrees of camber on stock suspension, wheels with no spacers, with the whiteline/spc camber bolt in the top hole of the strut, it was great on track imho. I believe I could have achieved about -3.6 degrees of camber without issue, but I never maxed the camber plates and measured the alignment accurately. (Going too far on the camber plates was giving me so much front grip the car became very loose so I backed off)

Edit: I think you may be confusing the cascam with camber plates that are angled such that adjusting the position changes caster & camber, that's not really common on this car, almost all camber plates for this chassis are set up to adjust camber only, caster is adjusted by shifting the mount point towards the back of the chassis, racecomp does this in a fixed way by basically offsetting their studs compared to the oe top hat, the camber slot is basically shifted back compared to a camber plate that keeps OE caster. Raceseng plate has slots in it allowing the plate to slide back and forth in the car, their website should make it pretty clear.

I don't have any experience with other camber plates, sorry.

[WRBrzRX]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

You see, this is where you are wrong. If you think a change of 1 inch in CG has no significant impact on handling, you have no business talking about handling.

seriously wtf right

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

You see, this is where you are wrong. If you think a change of 1 inch in CG has no significant impact on handling, you have no business talking about handling.

The leverage changes by less than 10%, even at the full 2 inch drop. If you think that makes a difference, fine. It doesn't but you can believe it does if you wish.

Fitting stiffer springs without dropping the ride height will give you most of the change in weight transfer rate and reduced camber change you are actually noticing from the drop and is a more sensible decision for road use.

On the other hand, reducing the ground clearance by 40% makes a huge negative difference, especially on bumpy roads. Not to mention driveways and speed bumps.

And I'd be willing to test my lap times against yours any time.

Each to his own.

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by Gforce

The leverage changes by less than 10%, even at the full 2 inch drop. If you think that makes a difference, fine. It doesn't but you can believe it does if you wish.

I dont need to "believe". I have data that shows a gain in lateral grip generated by being 1.5" lower, as well as lap times improvement. This isnt rocket science, if you change something in the car setup, and that change makes you go faster, its a good change. I will "believe" data and laptimes over any non sense you may say here on anywhere else. Needing softer springs... lower CG not affecting handling... how can people even take you seriously is beyond me.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

I dont need to "believe". I have data that shows a gain in lateral grip generated by being 1.5" lower, as well as lap times improvement. This isnt rocket science, if you change something in the car setup, and that change makes you go faster, its a good change. I will "believe" data and laptimes over any non sense you may say here on anywhere else. Needing softer springs... lower CG not affecting handling... how can people even take you seriously is beyond me.

And by what percentage did your lap time improve after carefully making just that one adjustment: lowering your car? If you prefer you could publish the data in %g but those g meters aren't terribly accurate. Stop watch difference would be more accurate.

If you also changed the spring length or rate then you can't know what to attribute just to the CG change, now can you?

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by Gforce

And I'd be willing to test my lap times against yours any time.

Your lap times from... driving like a dipshit on public roads? Those lap times? You've already said that you've never had your car on a track and all of your vaunted expertise comes from driving on streets. Or did you forget that part of your story, ubersuber? What kind of lap times are you throwing down on the way to Tim Horton's?

The fact is that whether you're trolling or you genuinely believe what you're saying, no one will listen to you because you're flat out wrong about so many things that are easily proven otherwise. Especially when people go back and read your previous usernames' idiocy.

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by Gearhead1

Not sure about cheaper. RacerX adjustable LCA's list for $579. Raceseng's camber plates are $420 plus the cost of coilovers, correct?

If you're interested, there are RaceSeng CasCam plates at a great deal in the classified section. You would need to buy the OEM spring perch, but that's still a few hundred less than new.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119063

[Gearhead1]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

The caster adjustment on the Cascam camber plates has little impact on your available camber, they are separate adjustments on this part. I was able to run approximately -3.2 degrees of camber on stock suspension, wheels with no spacers, with the whiteline/spc camber bolt in the top hole of the strut, it was great on track imho. I believe I could have achieved about -3.6 degrees of camber without issue, but I never maxed the camber plates and measured the alignment accurately. (Going too far on the camber plates was giving me so much front grip the car became very loose so I backed off)

Edit: I think you may be confusing the cascam with camber plates that are angled such that adjusting the position changes caster & camber, that's not really common on this car, almost all camber plates for this chassis are set up to adjust camber only, caster is adjusted by shifting the mount point towards the back of the chassis, racecomp does this in a fixed way by basically offsetting their studs compared to the oe top hat, the camber slot is basically shifted back compared to a camber plate that keeps OE caster. Raceseng plate has slots in it allowing the plate to slide back and forth in the car, their website should make it pretty clear.

I don't have any experience with other camber plates, sorry.

Sounds like you got at least an additional 2 degrees of negative camber beyond what you started with. While that isn't the 4.5 degrees Raceseng claims, it is plenty to do what I want. I knew about the independent adjustment of caster and camber with the Cascams; I just didn't think there was enough space in the strut tower to get that much range of adjustment without having skinny coilovers. That you so much for the very valuable feedback.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Gearhead1

Sounds like you got at least an additional 2 degrees of negative camber beyond what you started with. While that isn't the 4.5 degrees Raceseng claims, it is plenty to do what I want. I knew about the independent adjustment of caster and camber with the Cascams; I just didn't think there was enough space in the strut tower to get that much range of adjustment without having skinny coilovers. That you so much for the very valuable feedback.

Pretty accurate assessment of my experience. The only thing I'd mention is that I never maxed the camber with the stock coilovers because I never needed to so there's a few tenths of a degree more adjustment available I believe.

Checking Raceseng's site again they phrase the -4.5 degree claim appropriately:

The combination of the camber bolt and slotted coilovers can yield -4.5° of negative camber gain.

I never had slotted struts, only camber bolts, I'd believe -4.5 is possible if you go all the way with coilovers, don't think anybody concerned about grip would do that though.

[Gearhead1]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Pretty accurate assessment of my experience. The only thing I'd mention is that I never maxed the camber with the stock coilovers because I never needed to so there's a few tenths of a degree more adjustment available I believe.

Checking Raceseng's site again they phrase the -4.5 degree claim appropriately:


I never had slotted struts, only camber bolts, I'd believe -4.5 is possible if you go all the way with coilovers, don't think anybody concerned about grip would do that though.

The statement on the Raceseng site is correct, but that is not what I based my comment on. I asked Raceseng customer service the following:
I am interested is the CasCam's for my BRZ. I have OE springs with Bilstein B6 struts. I have two questions:

1. If they are set to get the 1 degree of additional positive caster, what is the maximum additional negative camber (over and above stock) I can expect (again, OE springs)?

2. In the nominal position for caster and camber (same as stock), how much should I expect they will raise the front of the car?

From customer service:
Hi John,
The Cascam is designed with a range capable of a max of -4.5 degrees negative camber and up to +1 positive. The stack height compared to the OEM top hats is less with the cascam, not by a significant amount but slightly, so it will sit just a bit lower than it would with the OEM top hats. Thanks.

Ryan

Because I didn't believe that camber was possible with OE springs and I was also surprised that he said it would lower the front of the car (you said it raised yours a bit) I provided this response to see if I'd get a different answer:
As for camber, I didn't know there was that much room to move the OE spring inside the strut tower. And the stack height is impressive.

Raceseng didn't respond to this.

Bottom line: with around 2 degrees more negative camber and not much change in ride height, I'll be happy and I placed my order. That being said, I did feel like Ryan in customer service was being extremely misleading, especially given how clearly I asked the question.