CSG and RCE tag-team suspension Q&A thread! Ask us anything!

[thetyrant]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Can you provide evidence of this "official" information? Many people asked in the past and the people at Ohlins were not allowed to give any details of the changed spring rates. Additionally, there are no headquarters in Germany. They have just a distribution and test office at the Nürburgring. I live in Germany, so I know a bit better

Glad you know a bit better this information came direct from an employee at the German test and distribution centre ( HQ for Ohlins in germany as far as im concerned apologies if the wording didnt please you ) but as it was a personal email and not an official news bulletin so im not sure if they would want me to share on a public forum, i can ask though, or you could email them yourself and ask as it didnt seem to be any big secret and the person i spoke to was directly involved with the changes in development for this kit

Im guessing others who have asked in past probably havent spoken to the right people and they didnt know the details so clouded it in secrecy, i dont know, but i asked and was given the details which i believe as i trust the guy who told me as ive known him a long time

[Gforce]

These simple devices should be considered by anyone seeking better front to rear chassis balance:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112859

They work by reducing the anti squat leverage caused by the steep angle of the rear trailing arms. Presumably, this angle would be ideal for the awd Impreza version of this car with its longer and softer springs. It seems it cannot be ideal for both the Impreza and the BRZ.

The effect on the road is similar to fitting softer rate rear springs but without changing the actual roll effects. Antisquat cannot prevent squat, only delay it. If the load transfer is sustained for long enough rear spring compression should be the same with or without these brackets. The spring compression is slightly more rapid with anti squat reduced. MCA suggests you can usefully increase the rear damping rate after fitting these brackets if you want to restore some transient roll stiffness to the rear axle.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

It changes noticeably even with a few tenths of a degree of camber change, more camber = toe in, less camber = toe out from my experience. You'll have to spring for alignment on at least the front axle after getting the camber plates, in my experience be precise about what you want (maximize camber bolts first, have camber bolts give even numbers then move plates to get X degrees, the plates should be on equal marks left to right, or if you'd rather the plates not be even and max the bolts, that sort of thing, etc.)

If you look for a post of mine (I think in 2016), you'll see I have documented the change in tow is about 1/10th of whatever the change is camber is at the front of the vehicle.

[Lust]

In need of some guidance, I recently just purchased a used set of RCE Tarmac 2 coilovers which will be matched up with SPL LCA and Raceseng Cascams. I plan to get them installed on a 2017 BRZ which I plan to daily drive. I think I have alignment settings in mind -3F -2.5R & 0F and 1/32"R toe. Ride height will probably be at 25"-25.5", unless recommended otherwise, and I will be on 18x9.5 +40 wheels with 265/35 AD08R tires.

First question is whether or not I would benefit from going to a Raceseng rear shocktop or would I be fine using OEM rear mounts? If the raceseng mounts are going to be a noticeable upgrade for me, would the 2" shock top end up being too low?

Second question is in regards to setup. How do those settings look? I plan on using the car for daily driving. I drive the car mostly on the freeway around 50 miles a day. I do plan to track the car this year. Probably an event or two at minimum. Other than that I will be driving spirited in the canyons or a windy backroad somewhere.

[FirstWinter]

Originally Posted by Lust

In need of some guidance, I recently just purchased a used set of RCE Tarmac 2 coilovers which will be matched up with SPL LCA and Raceseng Cascams. I plan to get them installed on a 2017 BRZ which I plan to daily drive. I think I have alignment settings in mind -3F -2.5R & 0F and 1/32"R toe. Ride height will probably be at 25"-25.5", unless recommended otherwise, and I will be on 18x9.5 +40 wheels with 265/35 AD08R tires.

First question is whether or not I would benefit from going to a Raceseng rear shocktop or would I be fine using OEM rear mounts? If the raceseng mounts are going to be a noticeable upgrade for me, would the 2" shock top end up being too low?

Second question is in regards to setup. How do those settings look? I plan on using the car for daily driving. I drive the car mostly on the freeway around 50 miles a day. I do plan to track the car this year. Probably an event or two at minimum. Other than that I will be driving spirited in the canyons or a windy backroad somewhere.

You can reuse the rear OEM top hats. If you need more travel you can use the lower hole on the SPL LCA. You'll be fine for street/track use.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Lust

In need of some guidance, I recently just purchased a used set of RCE Tarmac 2 coilovers which will be matched up with SPL LCA and Raceseng Cascams. I plan to get them installed on a 2017 BRZ which I plan to daily drive. I think I have alignment settings in mind -3F -2.5R & 0F and 1/32"R toe. Ride height will probably be at 25"-25.5", unless recommended otherwise, and I will be on 18x9.5 +40 wheels with 265/35 AD08R tires.

First question is whether or not I would benefit from going to a Raceseng rear shocktop or would I be fine using OEM rear mounts? If the raceseng mounts are going to be a noticeable upgrade for me, would the 2" shock top end up being too low?

Second question is in regards to setup. How do those settings look? I plan on using the car for daily driving. I drive the car mostly on the freeway around 50 miles a day. I do plan to track the car this year. Probably an event or two at minimum. Other than that I will be driving spirited in the canyons or a windy backroad somewhere.

OEM rear mounts will be fine for you. In general I don't recommend the 2 inch rear raceseng mounts with our coilovers.

That alignment is good, maybe a tad aggressive for a highway daily driver.

- Andrew

[SStratos]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Agreed with @Captain Snooze that establishing a budget is the honest step 1.

Step 2 is deciding what kind and what size tire you plan on using. This plays a big part in step 3, which is deciding how hardcore you want to be. Do you want to set track records with hoosiers? Do you want to drive your car daily? Do you drive on the crappy beat up roads of Baltimore city like me and need something that can handle both that and the track? Again, you can do a lot of things with an excellent shock, but that goes back to step 1...the budget.

There are MANY other factors...wings and aero for example. But budget and tire choice are the main things.

As for damping, that gets a bit more complicated. You'll sometimes see phrases like 65% critically damped thrown around. If that scares you, take a step back. If not...I'd encourage you to do a LOT of reading. It gets fun but nerdy.

- Andy

Hi Andy,

PM'ed with you last year before I had a chance to purchase my BRZ in November of 2916

In brief I was learning from you about set ups ideal for both daily driving and the occasional track day with a square set up of 17"x8" at that time.

Since then I have done more research on coil overs and wheel fitment and was wanting for more aesthetic reasons wanting to change my above mentioned 17"x8" square set up to a staggered setup of 17"x9" Front/ 17"x10" Rear. I would still be bringing it out to the occasional track day and want to try to maintain as much the neutral handling characteristics of the car as possible, so I have a few other questions about this new wheel set up following your above posted 3 step process.

a) with a budget for coilovers-bushings-strut bracing-steering column bracing trying to keep things, under or near abouts, the $5-6000.00 range using the staggered setup above, with either
-Bridgestone R71 R
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...omCompare1=yes

or

-BFGoodrich g-Force Rival S1.5
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...omCompare1=yes

...and running possibly a dive plane/canard on each front corner, but definitely a duck bill CFD trunk on the back, what would be some of my best options to allow for a good range of setup change between daily street driving vs track set up?

b) with the above setup and your proposed coilovers-bushings-strut bracing-steering column bracing solutions, I would like to understand the physics of how weight distribution affects the above setup; ie. if the above setup will provide under steer, which moves the cornering performance from the OEM neutral to somewhat over steer, would shifting the weight balance by lowering the front and moving the weight balance forward dial away some of the under steer?

c) what other ways can I dial away some of the under steer of the above setup?



Cheers

[churchx]

Lust: front cascams will help you net front camber. Imho you can skip rear shocktop (imho more meant to leave shock travel non shortened while putting higher mount position, more for lowering crowd).
Chosen alignment settings look good for HPDE. Except maybe i'd consider narrower tires (AD08R itself is serious upgrade in grip over primacies. Not sure you need 265 width) & wheels (for less chance to rub/more clearance & less weight).
But! You stated - for daily driving with just event or two. For that imho no need to go for "track alignment". I'd get some -1.5 to -2 front camber and -1 to -1.5 rear. And that can be got w/o camberplates, just camber bolts front & lca-s rear. You also don't need that much grip on street unless going for forced induction. I'd rather save some money using bolts for alignment, get extra comfort by leaving stock rubber front topmounts, and keep a bit of power oversteer playfulness at lower, more legal speeds, even with stock lack of power. Even if with AD08R, but of stock width. There still will be lot of extra grip from better tire type. Side gain - cheaper and lighter tires.

SStratos: if you are going for staggered setup due looks, you'd better check will it fit thread. I'm not that sure x10 fitting well w/o rubbing. And i guess that alignment choices to make it not rub will further limit possible workarounds/hacks to dial back extra undeersteer from your wheel choice.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by SStratos

c) what other ways can I dial away some of the under steer of the above setup?

Stick with a square setup for performance driving.

You're asking for some rather technical answers but are ignoring the most fundamental setup mistake you're making. if you absolutely must go staggered, get a separate square setup in a good light/strong wheel for the track (the tires are typically loud on the street anyway, a step down from the 200TW for daily would be good).

Second, for track go RS4. The RE71R is so autocross focused and the wear is likely not worth the grip. The BFG may wear longer (I don't know its lifespan on the track, but I'd be wary given its autocross performance), but everything points to the RS4 being the upgrade a lot of folks hoped for... though not as good for autoxcross.k

As for a setup... a possible starting point:

T2 and good front camber plates (I can't recommend the Raceseng front cascam and rear 1" tophats enough) and the easy to add whiteline inserts/bushings (transmission/shifter/rear subframe/diff/steering rack), no strut-bars. Forget the aero, put the remaining budget (there will be some relative to your stated funds) into that square wheel setup... maybe 949 6UL's or the popular Enkei RPF1. If you really want the aero, rear diffuser and front splitter to start off.

[Lust]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

OEM rear mounts will be fine for you. In general I don't recommend the 2 inch rear raceseng mounts with our coilovers.

That alignment is good, maybe a tad aggressive for a highway daily driver.

- Andrew

Alright sounds good. What's a good starting point for rebound and damping settings?

Originally Posted by churchx

Lust: front cascams will help you net front camber. Imho you can skip rear shocktop (imho more meant to leave shock travel non shortened while putting higher mount position, more for lowering crowd).
Chosen alignment settings look good for HPDE. Except maybe i'd consider narrower tires (AD08R itself is serious upgrade in grip over primacies. Not sure you need 265 width) & wheels (for less chance to rub/more clearance & less weight).
But! You stated - for daily driving with just event or two. For that imho no need to go for "track alignment". I'd get some -1.5 to -2 front camber and -1 to -1.5 rear. And that can be got w/o camberplates, just camber bolts front & lca-s rear. You also don't need that much grip on street unless going for forced induction. I'd rather save some money using bolts for alignment, get extra comfort by leaving stock rubber front topmounts, and keep a bit of power oversteer playfulness at lower, more legal speeds, even with stock lack of power. Even if with AD08R, but of stock width. There still will be lot of extra grip from better tire type. Side gain - cheaper and lighter tires.

SStratos: if you are going for staggered setup due looks, you'd better check will it fit thread. I'm not that sure x10 fitting well w/o rubbing. And i guess that alignment choices to make it not rub will further limit possible workarounds/hacks to dial back extra undeersteer from your wheel choice.

I'll look at a different tire in the future since I already have the AD08Rs mounted on TE37SLs. Do you have any specific tire suggestions? Cascams I already purchased so I might as well use em. On my previous FRS I had -2F and -1.5R camber and people were saying it wasn't enough. So I might go in the middle with -2.5F and -2R.

[churchx]

Were saying "wasn't enough" but "for what"? For track? Yes, with -2.4 front still mostly outside of tire got worn. But i also did more trackdays then just one or two you mentioned and that's were 4/5th of tire thread i wore for two sets, even though (way more gentle to tires) daily driven mileage totaled to much more. I'd be happy to get more camber, but unfortunately am limited by unwillingness to give up rubber topmounts for NVH/DD compliance reasons. Will you go to track as often/drive there for as long? If not, what's "best", differs. Hence the prerequisite questions before suggesting something.
As for tire choice my favourites are MPSS/MP4 and ones you are using, AD08R . Heard that new ExtremeContact Sports should also fit among those.

[Lust]

Originally Posted by churchx

Were saying "wasn't enough" but "for what"? For track? Yes, with -2.4 front still mostly outside of tire got worn. But i also did more trackdays then just one or two you mentioned and that's were 4/5th of tire thread i wore for two sets, even though (way more gentle to tires) daily driven mileage totaled to much more. I'd be happy to get more camber, but unfortunately am limited by unwillingness to give up rubber topmounts for NVH/DD compliance reasons. Will you go to track as often/drive there for as long? If not, what's "best", differs. Hence the prerequisite questions before suggesting something.
As for tire choice my favourites are MPSS/MP4 and ones you are using, AD08R . Heard that new ExtremeContact Sports should also fit among those.

I forgot which user, but I remember a few people saying I didn't have enough camber for the situation I had stated above which is a few track events, spirited driving, and long highway miles.

[churchx]

I'd say, just get through your current set of tires and watch wear pattern and according to that adjust after a while alignment to more fitting one to shares of track/dd YOU drive. Nor i nor probably those sayers won't be able say 100% right, to what exactly YOUR daily driving wear vs track wear amounts to not knowing how to interpret right what "few" regarding track events may mean, not knowing for how long sessions/how much total driving per track day/how much you are pushing means and so on. Both from me and them it will be 75% guesswork. Let real wear show what's optimum. For me - according to how i wore tires, i'd benefit from more. Will you? You'll see yourself, just tell suspension shop later on to adjust according to what you see if more camber is needed or not. Of course, one can also adjust for track "right way", using what pyrometer shows and such .. but that will be just for track, setting aside DD mileage/wear of unknown share. Spirited driving .. i'd ignore it wear/optimal alignment choice wise, as in my eyes it doesn't differ much from generic daily driving, because - unless you drive like hoon at illegal speeds and in dangerous to everybody way and without leaving wide safety margin like on track, your tires will never see side-Gs/sidewall flex of amount for track-optimal-camber to be beneficial. Even more so on grippy tires you are using (AD08R 245). I guess you'll be way over speed limit even at many turns, not just in straights, to really feel lesser camber limiting you in any way on public roads.

[nikitopo]

Best guidance in your AD08R's and other tires the small triangle. Tire wear should not pass the triangle, otherwise you are riding the sidewalls: