Video: Toyota GR86 SPIED for the First Time!

[WolfpackS2k]

Still amuses me to no end that people think Subaru won't give the BRZ a turbo for fear of losing WRX/STI sales. Ah yes, because everyone that wants a sports car also considers a hopped up economy sedan with questionable looks.

IF Subaru does offer a turbo BRZ from the factory for the 2nd generation I will be a bit torn. My Porsche has been paid off for a while and has had a lot of suspension goodies installed on it...so would I consider selling it for a turbo BRZ? Hmmmmm

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Still amuses me to no end that people think Subaru won't give the BRZ a turbo for fear of losing WRX/STI sales. Ah yes, because everyone that wants a sports car also considers a hopped up economy sedan with questionable looks.

IF Subaru does offer a turbo BRZ from the factory for the 2nd generation I will be a bit torn. My Porsche has been paid off for a while and has had a lot of suspension goodies installed on it...so would I consider selling it for a turbo BRZ? Hmmmmm

Subaru cannot see it like this. They will always consider the WRX/STI their own car and the BRZ as something else.

Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk

[Aki]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The Twins base is already 10 years old. This isn't a matter of saying it is a 4 or 5 MY year "next gen".

I can already hear the press ripping it apart as presenting a 10 year old car with some minor changes as a "Next generation".

Coming out of lurk-status.

Press or consumers don't mind if it's not a ground-up so long as it's a substantial improvement over the predecessor. "Substantial" being subjective. There are numerous examples of arguably warmed over cars being praised, like the Ferrari 360 > F430, or Jaguar XJ6 Series II > Series III. The examples where the FMC-lite models being panned were usually because they had somehow downgraded, or didn't provide enough of an upgrade (like the gen 7 to gen 8 Honda Civic). It's the whole package, rather than how much new sheet metal is in the GR86.

A decent powerbump, plus same or lighter weight, plus improving the torque curve while maintaining the same agile dynamics should be well-received. Whether that translates into sales is another story...

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Aki

Coming out of lurk-status.

Press or consumers don't mind if it's not a ground-up so long as it's a substantial improvement over the predecessor. "Substantial" being subjective. There are numerous examples of arguably warmed over cars being praised, like the Ferrari 360 > F430, or Jaguar XJ6 Series II > Series III. The examples where the FMC-lite models being panned were usually because they had somehow downgraded, or didn't provide enough of an upgrade (like the gen 7 to gen 8 Honda Civic). It's the whole package, rather than how much new sheet metal is in the GR86.

A decent powerbump, plus same or lighter weight, plus improving the torque curve while maintaining the same agile dynamics should be well-received. Whether that translates into sales is another story...

Yes. But this is not a Jag or Ferrari. If it is not a substantial bump the press and internet will crucify them since they already say it is "too slow".
The expectations (even if not realistic) were not met the first time around and if they do the same again it won't go well with the reviewers that spend 1/2 an hour in the car and say it is not powerful enough. They want supercar performance at econobox prices and it just ain't gonna happen.


Oh and for the record I think that a mild bump and restyle is fine and am not saying it will not be liked because of personal reasons. Just predicting how the internet will respond.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

with the reviewers that spend 1/2 an hour in the car and say it is not powerful enough. They want supercar performance at econobox prices and it just ain't gonna happen.

Most car journalists are a bunch of spoiled brats. Everything always has to be faster and better and cheaper.

[nikitopo]

I can say that it is a natural evolution of the car. A small bump in power with a bit bigger engine displacement, a redesigned interior and exterior. It looks OK for the time being.

[Ash_89]

Correct me if I'm wrong but has the possibility of the FA24 ever been confirmed or is it wishful thinking?

I ask as the return of the FA20 (as is) in the new car made me chuckle about how mad everyone would be.

P.S I've only had a sliver of wheel time in an 86 years ago so my opinion on the FA20 is mostly based on what I read and watch.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Ash_89

Correct me if I'm wrong but has the possibility of the FA24 ever been confirmed or is it wishful thinking?

I ask as the return of the FA20 (as is) in the new car made me chuckle about how mad everyone would be.

P.S I've only had a sliver of wheel time in an 86 years ago so my opinion on the FA20 is mostly based on what I read and watch.

There is zero real, confirmed, info on any of the car. Official channels remain silent.

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Still amuses me to no end that people think Subaru won't give the BRZ a turbo for fear of losing WRX/STI sales.

As has been pointed out by others and discussed elsewhere, it's not Subaru concerned about losing WRX sales that keeps a turbo off the BRZ. It's Toyota who doesn't want to jeopardize Supra sales that will keep it from happening.

This is now doubly true with the launch of the 4 cylinder Supra. With the base Supra having a 2.0 liter 255 hp engine - and $43,945 base price - a BRZ/86 with a 2.4 liter 260-ish hp engine for a possible low-mid $30k's price would encroach too closely on the Supra market. While some people might still spend $10k more for the 'Supra' name, I suspect most buyers would opt to spend $10k less and get similar (if not better) performance, as well as the possibility of a manual transmission (and likely superior Japanese vs German reliability).

Toyota owns 17% of Subaru, and like the first-gen car, is probably putting up around half of the cost of developing the second-gen car. Toyota is also about ten times bigger than Subaru in terms of revenues and market share. That gives them enough clout to essentially call the shots. Even if Subaru wanted to give the BRZ/86 a turbo engine, I can't see Toyota allowing that out of their fear for cannibalizing Supra sales. Even though it's made by (and bought from) BMW, the 'Supra' name is Toyota's own, a legacy to its past legendary sports car (and with the higher price, probably more profitable).

Even though Toyota is likely the reason for no turbo on the BRZ/86, we still owe them a debt of thanks. Without Toyota, there almost certainly would never have been either a first generation BRZ/86 nor the second generation car. Subaru is too small of a manufacturer to have undertaken the development of such a car, with its RWD platform, on its own.

But the thing about dancing with an 800 pound gorilla is, you dance to the tune the gorilla calls, and you're finished dancing when the gorilla says you are.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Ash_89

Correct me if I'm wrong but has the possibility of the FA24 ever been confirmed or is it wishful thinking?

I ask as the return of the FA20 (as is) in the new car made me chuckle about how mad everyone would be.

P.S I've only had a sliver of wheel time in an 86 years ago so my opinion on the FA20 is mostly based on what I read and watch.

The mythical FA24 has been a speculative engine from the beginning.
How do you go about adding power without a turbo? Make the engine bigger.
Why was the FA24 specifically chosen for this application? The current car uses an FA20, an FA24 would technically be a 2.4L version of it. Subaru makes an FA24 turbo on the new Ascent. So just take the turbo off the FA24 and you get a N/A 2.4L FA24 that would be natural evolutionary step for to replace an FA20.

And that is how and why the FA24 was the speculated motor for this car and everyone has been running with it. Power numbers were all over the place and most likely just pulled out of ones butt based on math and its currently ended up a 217hp 177lb/ft
(which is surprisingly close to the GRMN 86 power numbers...which means...you guessed it, Someone must have just took the FA20 numbers, and paired them to the FA24 because its a "realistic" number that can be achieved, rather than stupid numbers, wishful thinking numbers, and low probably numbers people wish it could have (like 240hp/200lb/ft torque).

IN reality all the leaks dont really indicate what the motor is and they're running with the 217hp numbers right now.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

AIt's Toyota who doesn't want to jeopardize Supra sales that will keep it from happening. .

Other than heavy Internet conjecture, is there any official proof of this?

Manufacturers have this type of cross competition all the time. The 86 and the Supra are too different cars, and for the most part compete in different (small) segments.

Even Toyota has multiple product lines where the high end of one is above the low end of the next "better" model.

[Ash_89]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

There is zero real, confirmed, info on any of the car. Official channels remain silent.

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

The mythical FA24 has been a speculative engine from the beginning.
How do you go about adding power without a turbo? Make the engine bigger.
Why was the FA24 specifically chosen for this application? The current car uses an FA20, an FA24 would technically be a 2.4L version of it. Subaru makes an FA24 turbo on the new Ascent. So just take the turbo off the FA24 and you get a N/A 2.4L FA24 that would be natural evolutionary step for to replace an FA20.

And that is how and why the FA24 was the speculated motor for this car and everyone has been running with it. Power numbers were all over the place and most likely just pulled out of ones butt based on math and its currently ended up a 217hp 177lb/ft
(which is surprisingly close to the GRMN 86 power numbers...which means...you guessed it, Someone must have just took the FA20 numbers, and paired them to the FA24 because its a "realistic" number that can be achieved, rather than stupid numbers, wishful thinking numbers, and low probably numbers people wish it could have (like 240hp/200lb/ft torque).

IN reality all the leaks dont really indicate what the motor is and they're running with the 217hp numbers right now.

Thank you.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Other than heavy Internet conjecture, is there any official proof of this?

Manufacturers have this type of cross competition all the time. The 86 and the Supra are too different cars, and for the most part compete in different (small) segments.

Even Toyota has multiple product lines where the high end of one is above the low end of the next "better" model.

^^This

Toyota didn't have an issue to provide a 270hp engine in the GR Yaris. They don't care about the Supra 2.0. Different car segments and price points.

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

^^This

Toyota didn't have an issue to provide a 270hp engine in the GR Yaris. They don't care about the Supra 2.0. Different car segments and price points.

The cars are not cross shopped and the GR Yaris will likely have a decent profit as a lower volume econo halo.
The twins would erode Supra sales if equipped with a turbo. I'd bet 9 out of 10 consumers will buy the car that is 25% less money given the option. And aside from the turbo, there are a lot of heavier components necessary. And insurance ratings are important as well for people shopping this segment. If there's ever a factory FI twin, my guess is it will be much lower volume and $10K more than an N/A twin. Like a tS +. Again, at that price point why not just take a Supra? I guarantee it has a better quality feel, especially the interior. Ya gets what ya pays for! For example, Subaru STI has a long list of strengthened components along with the extra power. Twins with all those extras? Not cheap!