AP Racing brake systems in development

[Captain Snooze]

Might there be an option for 2 piece rotors for the Sprint kit?

[os86]

here's a question

By upgrading the front brakes and leaving the rear ones stock, will this disturb the brake distribution balance in the car ?

I am aware that front brakes cop most abuse

[ExoticAir]

AP Racing makes real performance BBKS!

[MSTiFK8R]

Nice to hear that the dust seals would be an option, cause we live in a dirty world )

Also would it be an option to have the non-full-floating discs, as they claim to squeal on low speed ? Or maybe you could provide a set of bobbin springs to carry this full-floating-peculiar squeal and shudder away under low-load conditions?

[thebear21]

umm yup you can sign me up for this kit asap!!!

[000 Racing]

I like these brakes and I am in .... provided they fit under the 17" rims.. Our production racing rules mean keeping to specs so if there is another 17" or I need a 35 - 38 offset no probs. Keep me on the list for your first production run.. Mine is in for the cage next week !! Any time frame for manufacture .. delivery??
Chris

[JRitt]

Here's my question, do these clear the stock wheels?

The Endurance and Sprint Competition Systems will not clear the stock wheels. We've verified that 17x8 +45 Enkei RPF1's will clear both of these systems, and we'll start logging other customer fitments as well. I'll post the database of confirmed fitments on our website as the list grows.

The smaller, 4 piston, front Formula system will clear the stock wheel.

Never picked up your WRX/STI kit because it didn't have dust seals. I know dust seals suck, but for a road car I consider them a necessity.

Well, dust boots are nice, but the reality is they aren't as critical as people make them out to be. They can burn up very quickly. On just about every car I've ever tracked with dust boots, I've incinerated them in short order. Then all you have left is the tattered, ragged, rubbery remains of a dust boot. They don't do you any good at that point anyway, and you certainly wouldn't want to be changing them out after every track event.

Also, we need to be clear on what exactly we're talking about. Dust boots are the little rubber bits out on the edge. I'll try to dig up some pics and post them so this is clear. The calipers in our competition kits have high temperature seals that prevent debris from getting down alongside/behind the pistons. There shouldn't be any concerns about them getting contaminated and having to rebuild them constantly. People who only sell street brake systems try to scare people about this issue, but it just isn't the case. We have hundreds of vettes, evo's, sti's, M3's, etc. running our CP8350's under all types of harsh environments (think summertime at Willow Springs, with dust and dirt everywhere), and we haven't had a single claim of any debris getting into piston bores.

Also, if when it does come time to rebuild calipers, we offer a caliper certification service (we are AP's exclusive rebuild center in North America). You just pull the calipers, send them to us, we freshen them, and send them back. You don't even get that dirty.

At any rate, dust boots are only useful up to the point where you incinerate them, which in some cases is as soon as you take the car on the track. So, if you only ever plan to drive on the street, they are a great addition. But if you plan to wail on the car at the track, they may not be of any value to you at all.

Now tell us about that prototype exhaust system you're allegedly working on.

That is a different story for another time, and there's nothing alleged about it.

Might there be an option for 2 piece rotors for the Sprint kit?

The Sprint system will be a 2-piece disc with an aluminum hat (also called a bell by some). Instead of being floating however, the aluminum hat will be bolted to the disc without any float. In other words, there won't be any play in the assembly. This is commonly referred to as a fixed hat. As I mentioned in my discussion, this can be perceived as being problematic by some, but the reality is that these discs have already been proven under intensely harsh conditions with the fixed hat. We use them without any issues in Late Model racing, with cars that are 500hp and 2800 lbs.!

By upgrading the front brakes and leaving the rear ones stock, will this disturb the brake distribution balance in the car ?

We are actually looking at rear solutions as well, but for many people a front setup is all they'll want or need. For most people it is an issue of economics. The key is that the piston sizes and disc diameters need to be within a certain range to work properly with ABS, EBD, stability systems, etc. Therefore, these things need to be calculated and taken into account, which we are doing. All of our front systems will be designed to bolt onto the car without any need to touch the master cylinder, and they will work seamlessly with all of the systems listed above.

I am aware that front brakes cop most abuse

Yes, on a front engine car, the front brakes do take the bulk of the abuse and do most of the work. On a rear engine car...something like a Porsche 911, the weight distribution of the car dictates that the rear brakes will be doing proportionally more work than on a front engine car.

Also would it be an option to have the non-full-floating discs, as they claim to squeal on low speed ? Or maybe you could provide a set of bobbin springs to carry this full-floating-peculiar squeal and shudder away under low-load conditions?

The floating hats we use on the Endurance system do not have any spring clips currently, and they can rattle a little bit when they are cold (when they are hot, the discs expand and they don't rattle). For most of our customers who are serious about tracking their cars, this isn't a concern however.
The Sprint system will have a fixed hat as described above, and will therefore not have any rattling noise or NVH.
Squealing is typically a function of pad noise, and how the hat is mounted wouldn't typically have any impact on squealing noises.
Shudder or judder would usually be created by uneven pad deposits on the disc. Our systems don't have any judder or shudder through the pedal. That would usually only occur if you overheated the pad material and smeared it on the discs in an uneven fashion.

umm yup you can sign me up for this kit asap!!!

Great. I'll definitely post details as soon as I have more! I'm hoping to be selling these by the end of summer.

I like these brakes and I am in .... provided they fit under the 17" rims.. Our production racing rules mean keeping to specs so if there is another 17" or I need a 35 - 38 offset no probs. Keep me on the list for your first production run.. Mine is in for the cage next week !! Any time frame for manufacture .. delivery??
Chris

Chris,
Both of the Competition systems (Endurance and Sprint) will fit under many aftermarket 17" wheels. That was a high priority during development, as we knew those most interested in these kits would be wanting to run the smallest, lightest wheels possible. On our car we will be running them under 17" Enkei RPF1's, and they should clear many other 17's without any problem.

We already have wheel fitment templates drawn for these kits, which will allow you to check a specific wheel for clearance. I'm reluctant to post them on our site until we've completely finalized design, since the offsets could change slightly if we need to make a revision to the kit after test fitting the prototypes. We're supposed to test fit later this week, so I can post the templates as soon as we've verified fitment or decided to make any changes. That means you could order wheels, or confirm fitment on existing wheels, as early as next week.

After test fitment these will go into production. It will likely be 6-8 weeks after that before everything is manufactured and ready to ship. Therefore, I'm hoping these will be on cars by early September.

AP Racing makes real performance BBKS!

Indeed they do! We currently service about 80% of the field in NASCAR Sprint Cup with AP Racing brakes. They also have a huge presence in F1, ALMS, DTM, etc. They make the best stuff for sure.

[ICantAffordAnLFA]

Great. Decision on brakes made

[JRitt]

I just pulled together a quick summary of the fixed vs. floating attachment systems. Hopefully that adequately explains how the systems differ and work:
http://www.essexpartsblog.com/news/f...ng-brake-discs

[OrbitalEllipses]

When I say dust seals I mean piston boots. I'm aware they burn up, but a boot-less design leaves me scared of road debris (95% street driving!) destroying the piston bore seals and scarring the bores themselves. You're marketing to a more hardcore crowd; I both understand AND respect that. It's just that when I want to upgrade (let's be real, floating calipers look stupid) I want it to be a functional upgrade and I'll pay for that functionality.

Is there a weight difference between the fully floating discs and the fixed aluminum hat discs?

[JRitt]

When I say dust seals I mean piston boots. I'm aware they burn up, but a boot-less design leaves me scared of road debris (95% street driving!) destroying the piston bore seals and scarring the bores themselves. You're marketing to a more hardcore crowd; I both understand AND respect that. It's just that when I want to upgrade (let's be real, floating calipers look stupid) I want it to be a functional upgrade and I'll pay for that functionality.

Understood. It sounds like the Formula kits will be the more appropriate choice for you based on your needs. These systems use slightly larger diameter discs (increase heat capacity, but also fill the wheels out nicely), and come with beautifully painted calipers, dust boots, etc. I'll be posting more details on those soon. Below are the basics as they currently stand:

Formula Front System 1: Four piston, 343mm x 26mm disc, painted red, black, or silver. Fits under OEM 17" wheel.
Formula Front System 2: Six piston, 350mm x 32mm disc, painted red, black, or silver. Requires 18" or larger diameter aftermarket wheel.
Formula Rear System: Four piston, 335mm x 24mm one-piece disc with integral parking brake. Mates up to either of the Front Formula Systems (4 and 6 piston above). Fits under OEM 17" wheel. We went with a one piece rear disc to help keep the cost down and accommodate the parking brake.

These systems are using new caliper designs from AP, and they are going to be beautiful kits. I saw a sneak peek of the six piston, and it is a extremely nice looking piece of kit! They will be serious head turners. We're still finalizing disc options, fixed vs. floating, etc. Price will be assigned after we've established the final specification on these. Again, I will repeat that they are going to be a bit more expensive than the Competition Systems. I would estimate that retail prices will start in the mid to upper $2k range on the Formula front kits, vs. the low $2k's on the Competition kits.

Also, I want to be clear that these Formula Kits are in no way a poser, aesthetic-only upgrade. The AP Racing Formula systems are just like the ones on M3's, Evo's, GT-R's, S4's, etc. tearing up tracks all over Europe. These kits will provide a huge range of benefits over the stock equipment. They just aren't quite as hardcore as the Competition Systems, which have the anodized calipers, piston springs, etc. The Formula Kits will look a little prettier, but they will still have plenty of teeth for serious use!

Is there a weight difference between the fully floating discs and the fixed aluminum hat discs?

On our Competition Systems, the Endurance disc + hat is about 5 lbs. heavier than the disc/hat combo in our Sprint system.

[cyde01]

wait, so the formula kits are less hardcore than the competition kits, but more expensive? what are the advantages to the formula kits aside from the dust boots and larger brake discs? i guess we'll know when you post more details.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by cyde01

wait, so the formula kits are less hardcore than the competition kits, but more expensive? what are the advantages to the formula kits aside from the dust boots and larger brake discs? i guess we'll know when you post more details.

It's a more streetable application. The price increase is at least partially coming from those HUGE discs. Unless they've got aluminum hats those are probably heavy as shit. For comparison's sake, the STI rides on 326mm front discs.

[JRitt]

wait, so the formula kits are less hardcore than the competition kits, but more expensive? what are the advantages to the formula kits aside from the dust boots and larger brake discs? i guess we'll know when you post more details.

Patience Grasshopper!

We (Essex) are putting together the Competition Kits in the USA, using AP Racing competition components. We have our own engineering staff, and we have a full-time AP Racing engineer who lives in the US and works out of our office. The components we use in these kits are used in a range of racing environments, and are relatively low cost due to the volumes we import and sell. For example, we have stacks of the CP3862 discs to the ceiling in our warehouse. We import most of these parts in bulk and package everything here.

The Formula Kits are fully designed, built, assembled, and packaged in England by AP Racing. In this case, we've given some input on the design, what we'd like to see, shared some data, etc. The Formula Kits are lower volume items, and some of the associated costs with producing them are higher. The discs are larger, the calipers have to be painted, they come with brake fluid and pads, more labor & materials to pack them in England, etc. Therefore, the prices to the end-user are a little higher.

The Formula Kits will offer many of the same benefits as the Competition Kits. I can't get too specific because I don't have all the details yet, but generally speaking they have the attributes below:

• The discs are substantially larger, offering substantial increases in thermal capacity.
• The front systems will use a two-piece disc with an aluminum hat, which is considerably lighter than a one-piece disc
• Disc metallurgy specifically designed to handle high temps and offer a long service life
• Gloss painted caliper finish that is tested for heat resistance
• Superior pedal feel and modulation due to stiffer calipers
• High temperature, low drag seals = less rebuilding and longer service life
• Dust boots to prevent debris contamination on the street
• Simple pad changes- no need to remove calipers
• Extremely compact package for superior wheel fitment (four piston)
• High quality, Goodridge stainless steel brake line with clear sheath that reduces compliance over OEM rubber design.
• Much more attractive appearance vs. OEM FT86 brakes
• Saves your OEM components in good condition, so you can reinstall them when you sell your car
• Because of their quality and trusted brand name, AP Racing brake systems hold their value well in the used market, and you will get a considerable amount of money back out of them when you decide to part and sell your car
• Comes with AP Racing street brake pads
• Come with AP Racing brake fluid

Think of it this way...the Formula Kits are similar in concept to the type of brake kits that have traditionally been offered in the aftermarket by most manufacturers. They really walk the line between a street and track product. They are technically a street product, because some of the features are a compromise for track use (painted calipers, aluminum pistons, no knockback springs, etc.). That said, they certainly have the stones to do some heavy work, and will offer a huge list of benefits over the stock brakes. They work extremely well for both show and go, all while looking the business. The Competition Kits are geared more towards the lunatic fringe track junkies. They're stripped down and not as pretty, and they are very focused in their objectives. They are as small and light as possible, with function as the top priority. Aesthetics and all other considerations take a back seat to making the car go faster. Make sense?

Unless they've got aluminum hats those are probably heavy as shit. For comparison's sake, the STI rides on 326mm front discs.

Both front Formula Kits will indeed have aluminum hats, just like the Competition Kits. Also, the STI discs are 325x30mm thick. AP's Formula four piston will have a larger diameter, but will also only be 26mm thick. That will make it lighter than a thicker disc of the same diameter.