Oil coolers for DD/HDPE cars...

[Milhouse86]

Originally Posted by Petah78

Can you share your thoughts on why you think it was oil temp that led to the engine failure? More details on your car/engine? Year, mileage, how it was driven and maintenance?


Thanks.

Damn people are getting touchy.

Like someone said I have not torn it down yet. We think it was rod based on that the one time I turned it over the crank pulley wobbled.

Car is a 2013 with 100k miles. Well cared for under my care. Bought with 45k on it. I was still on the stock clutch at 100k and it was fine.

I think it was oil temp based on talking with a few shops and the general consensus is I gone done f***Ed up.

Good luck!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[bmxr]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Engine failure with no oil cooler does NOT necessarily imply engine failure because no oil cooler...

If sufficient oil wasn't being delivered to bearings, things were gonna go bad with or without an oil cooler...

I'm open to being edumacated further on this, but my position regarding HPDE-driven cars is:
1. 270-275F is not too hot for good synthetic oil. gcranston and others have had oil analysis done after running at these temps with no indications that the oil had been overheated to the point of degradation. For my usage of ~15-20 minute stints and changes after every couple of 2-day events or ~4 hours total, I don't believe the oil is breaking down between changes.
2. viscosity isn't an issue if you run thicker oil. 5w30 at 270-275F has about the same viscosity as 0w20 at 235-240F.
3. Pressure isn't an issue. We have test data showing the *same* pressure running 5w30 with vs. without an oil cooler. With the oil cooler the oil temp is ~250F and without it the temp is ~272F, but pressure drop in the cooler apparently exactly offsets any pressure that should've been gained due to running cooler/thicker oil. https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820

I might consider an oil cooler IF I were endurance racing, or IF oil temp continued to climb (always holds at just over 270F indicated, whatever the ambient temp), or IF coolant temps were a problem (always runs middle of the gauge even at 95F track days).

Anyway, that's my reasoning and I'm open to critique of it.

I'm almost afraid to chime in at this point, but I will say one thing: although I did not log pressures as carefully a some, multiple oil analyses before and after the cooler showed no oil degradation with 0w20. I am going to switch to 5w30 going forward anyway.

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by Milhouse86

Damn people are getting touchy.

Like someone said I have not torn it down yet. We think it was rod based on that the one time I turned it over the crank pulley wobbled.

Car is a 2013 with 100k miles. Well cared for under my care. Bought with 45k on it. I was still on the stock clutch at 100k and it was fine.

I think it was oil temp based on talking with a few shops and the general consensus is I gone done f***Ed up.

Good luck!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

I didn't mean to offend and apologize if I came across that way. I am still a newb with this platform and just want opinions of those that has had more experience. Thank you to everyone that has shared your experiences on the subject matter.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Milhouse86

Damn people are getting touchy.

We wanna know the root cause of your failure, that's all.

Car is a 2013 with 100k miles. Well cared for under my care. Bought with 45k on it. I was still on the stock clutch at 100k and it was fine.

First thing I do when I see a post with this kind of trouble is look over at the poster's sig for model year, almost always a '13...

I think it was oil temp based on talking with a few shops and the general consensus is I gone done f***Ed up.

Somebody f'd up, but maybe not you...
I know the tendency is to think that when (almost) errybody says you *MUST* have an oil cooler, and then you have a failure without one. But again, if a bearing isn't getting sufficient oil supply, there's gonna be trouble with or without a cooler.

[prandelia]

Another data snap at a recent cool, 60F ambient test day at NCM. Earlier that morning, we were running 203-212F oil in 37F ambient temp. So for 80-90F ambient temps, we expect peak oil temps at about 230-240F, which is very good. All oil thins and shears with high heat. Anything over 180F for oil is fine, running 195-215F on cool days are fantastic oil temps. Just because 300V says it's good to 300F, doesn't mean you run 270F all the time and think it's fine.....

As you can see from the dips in oil pressure, clearly the oiling system leaves a bit to be desired, and could be more stable. I could easily use 5W50 and run the similar temps, but with slightly better oil pressure, which is honestly a better idea. We think something along the lines of about 10psi pickup, and will test it at NCM in early March to confirm.

I'm using Millers oils, have used them in virtually all my race cars with outstanding results. Their nano-tech reduces friction and makes power. Another great alternative is Motul Sport Ester, it's virtually the same as 300V, but with an additive pack for street cars for extended drain, so best of both worlds. They offer 5W40 and 5W50 in 5L jugs for about $55. To me, this product makes 300V irrelevant.

Nobody that tracked an FRS ever said, my oil is too thick, I have too much oil pressure, or my temps are too low and blew an engine. I'm just providing real on-track data so that people can see and make decisions for themselves. I think this clearly illustrates that 5W40 at minimum, is a great oil weight for track coverage and all year round daily. Or perhaps use a 0W40, like Mobil 1, which is great euro formula, for daily drivers and track driving, and cheap! These cars get hot in daily driving, so it definitely will help there too.

It's a complex, connected issue. Oil coolers keep oil cooler, and thus, provide better oil pressure and lubrication for longer periods of time. If you choose to run without an oil cooler, then running a heavier oil, like 5W40 or 5W50 is even more imperative to help extend the life of your motor if you track.

[TommyW]

From the Toyota Endurance team Re longevity on the track

Oil cooler
100 Octane
5-50
Conservative AFR
Oil temp sub 240

And they push it

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuBkRSSAy6Q[/ame]

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by TommyW

From the Toyota Endurance team Re longevity on the track

Oil cooler
100 Octane
5-50
Conservative AFR
Oil temp sub 240

Based on what I've seen in my data logs, this seems like an ideal setup for a pure track car.

Even with 93/100 octane mix and a conservative tune, I was still seeing moderate detonation in 80-100F ambient temps, especially once IATs crested 100 F. Slightly rich AFR will help a bit with this

Keeping oil temps as low as possible is important for pressure reasons. I would think sub-230 should really be the goal, with maybe mid/high 230's as maybe a single max data point in the hottest ambient temps.

A 5-50 weight oil would help with pressure and works if the car is only driven on track. For a car that sees street usage, will have to balance cold start wear vs. track pressures.

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Based on what I've seen in my data logs, this seems like an ideal setup for a pure track car.

Even with 93/100 octane mix and a conservative tune, I was still seeing moderate detonation in 80-100F ambient temps, especially once IATs crested 100 F. Slightly rich AFR will help a bit with this

Keeping oil temps as low as possible is important for pressure reasons. I would think sub-230 should really be the goal, with maybe mid/high 230's as maybe a single max data point in the hottest ambient temps.

A 5-50 weight oil would help with pressure and works if the car is only driven on track. For a car that sees street usage, will have to balance cold start wear vs. track pressures.

yes my conversation with them was based on a strictly track focused car.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by TommyW

From the Toyota Endurance team Re longevity on the track

And they push it

Interesting, I was watching later in the evening and they were shifting at 6k, sometimes 5k rpm. Do you know if they went into fuel savings mode with that or if they were nursing a mechanical issue? All I can find on instagram is a wheel bearing went but they allude to other issues as well.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Interesting, I was watching later in the evening and they were shifting at 6k, sometimes 5k rpm. Do you know if they went into fuel savings mode with that or if they were nursing a mechanical issue? All I can find on instagram is a wheel bearing went but they allude to other issues as well.

Rain/wet track. Also, in enduro racing, it's not about raw speed, but about how much distance you travel.

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Interesting, I was watching later in the evening and they were shifting at 6k, sometimes 5k rpm. Do you know if they went into fuel savings mode with that or if they were nursing a mechanical issue? All I can find on instagram is a wheel bearing went but they allude to other issues as well.

A 25 hour race is not about shifting at red line, you want to short shift and save the car. Pobst WAS running the main straight in 4th and that means right at redline but other than that yeah lower shift points

Randy Pobst handed the car over with a good lead with 2 hours to go and the the new driver had 2 offs and then passed on the outside of 1 like a dummy close to the finish and got pushed WAAAYY off and that was that. Should have won easily. The car had no issues

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by TommyW

The car had no issues

Thanks was curious what they were alluding to with the 'multiple setbacks' comment they made. They definitely lost a wheel bearing and had an overheating issue according to their social media though.



I just thought it was odd that you implied they ran the thing at 10/10ths for 25 hours when they didn't, I agree that's not the way to win an endurance race especially at an amateur level when a tire change and refueling is giving up over a lap to the competition but not everybody reading your post understands that.

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Thanks was curious what they were alluding to with the 'multiple setbacks' comment they made. They definitely lost a wheel bearing and had an overheating issue according to their social media though.



I just thought it was odd that you implied they ran the thing at 10/10ths for 25 hours when they didn't, I agree that's not the way to win an endurance race especially at an amateur level when a tire change and refueling is giving up over a lap to the competition but not everybody reading your post understands that.

I didn’t say 10/10 so I’m not sure where you got that.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by TommyW

I didn’t say 10/10 so I’m not sure where you got that.

Originally Posted by TommyW

And they push it