STI Owner Thinks He Wants BRZ as DD & Track Car. Thoughts?

[hpde_addict]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I'm of the opinion that if you wouldn't consider a Miata than the 86 probably isn't a great fit.

I think that's a bit extreme. I feel that the 86 is a significant notch above the Miata in comfort and practicality. Mine is decently comfortable on 8 hour road trips and I haven't needed to rent a vehicle except for moving (easily fit an in-package large IKEA desk and chair). It's one of the main reasons I went with an 86 over an S2000/Miata.

EDIT: I just fit two 80x6x6" shower curtain rod boxes from Amazon (don't ask why). Can't do that in a Miata.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by hpde_addict

I think that's a bit extreme. I feel that the 86 is a significant notch above the Miata in comfort and practicality. Mine is decently comfortable on 8 hour road trips and I've never needed to rent a vehicle except for moving (easily fit an in-package large IKEA desk and chair). It's one of the main reasons I went with an 86 over an S2000/Miata.

It's a mentality thing, not an actual comparison shop.

Many so called 'enthusiasts' proudly proclaim they wouldn't be caught dead in a Miata, phrases like 'hairdressers car' '*** car' or 'no good without an LS' evoke the kind of person that is less interested in a low power momentum car and rather is more interested in how they are perceived and what car magazines publish.

At it's heart, the 86 strives for the same thing a Miata does, the 'horse and rider become one'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_MX-5#Jinba_ittai

I get where you're coming from (it's why I didn't buy a Miata, duh), I'm not saying all 86 owners want Miata's, I'm saying that someone who doesn't appreciate the Miata will likely grow weary of what the 86 is "lacking" in the long run.

The kind of people that don't 'get it' end up selling their car, or they dump a bunch of money into it, a few become satisfied, but I suspect most end up selling for a big loss.

[JSube]

Originally Posted by hpde_addict

I think that's a bit extreme. I feel that the 86 is a significant notch above the Miata in comfort and practicality. Mine is decently comfortable on 8 hour road trips and I haven't needed to rent a vehicle except for moving (easily fit an in-package large IKEA desk and chair). It's one of the main reasons I went with an 86 over an S2000/Miata.

EDIT: I just fit two 80x6x6" shower curtain rod boxes from Amazon (don't ask why). Can't do that in a Miata.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

It's a mentality thing, not an actual comparison shop.

Many so called 'enthusiasts' proudly proclaim they wouldn't be caught dead in a Miata, phrases like 'hairdressers car' '*** car' or 'no good without an LS' evoke the kind of person that is less interested in a low power momentum car and rather is more interested in how they are perceived and what car magazines publish.

At it's heart, the 86 strives for the same thing a Miata does, the 'horse and rider become one'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_MX-5#Jinba_ittai

I get where you're coming from (it's why I didn't buy a Miata, duh), I'm not saying all 86 owners want Miata's, I'm saying that someone who doesn't appreciate the Miata will likely grow weary of what the 86 is "lacking" in the long run.

The kind of people that don't 'get it' end up selling their car, or they dump a bunch of money into it, a few become satisfied, but I suspect most end up selling for a big loss.

Since driving nothing but sports cars for the past 25yrs, I've owned about 10 and averaged 1-3 years in each. New S2000 and raggedy NA Miata among them. The Honda was the car that made me realize I didn't love convertibles, even tho I did love that car on track. But it was cramped as a DD for me. The Miata wasn't kept long, it just wasn't a good example.
The car I kept the longest was an '05 350Z. Heavy and slowish, but always happy to oversteer at my request. It was my DD & track car for 9 yrs! Threw lots of $ at it and altho it never got quicker, it did handle better eventually.
I kind of look at the BRZ as a (much) better, 2800lb version of that car, with a "dog seat" in back that's essential for me to have. That disqualifies some great cars like the new MX-5 RF- 2 seats with no options won't work for me anymore, but RWD is what I miss most.
I've come to conclude my STI is a truly great car on a platform (AWD) I'm just not that interested in, if I'm honest. The mods I've done are the consensus choices for better durability & engine protection- it's a good bit quicker than stock and works extremely well. It has a lot going for it, but it's heavy and complicated.
What the car mags call "driving dynamics" is what I feel I'm missing some of right now. The more I read and the more I think about the feedback I'm getting here, the more I think the BRZ seems to be a simple and well-designed solution to get me back there.

[cjd]

@JSube - I don't know much about the STI as a driver, or how your 350 performed, and I've only been a rider in an S2000, but... my gut says you may find yourself happy in this car. It DOES respond well to some simple mods, both performance and handling. It's a lot of fun stock, but really wakes up with a little more spring, a little more camber up front than you can get out of bolts and a header/tune (especially a catless header with a high-flow cat in the front-pipe, and even moreso if you can do E85)

Mine weighs in at 2800 with me in it (and ~1/4 tank) after some work (I'm STX prepped for AutoX) and oversteer and understeer are my fault every time... but I've corrected understeer with throttle, so it's a pretty good balance I think. Power is fun, but the handling and feedback is addictive for me.

If you're up for a used car, the worst that I see happening is you find it's not quite what you wanted after all, and you trade it in for a Porsche in a year or two. Probably no different even if you jump into a new BRZ, really.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by JSube

The car I kept the longest was an '05 350Z. Heavy and slowish, but always happy to oversteer at my request. It was my DD & track car for 9 yrs! Threw lots of $ at it and altho it never got quicker, it did handle better eventually.
I kind of look at the BRZ as a (much) better, 2800lb version of that car, with a "dog seat" in back that's essential for me to have.

Haha in addition to my STI I also had a 350z. Sounds like we've owned similar cars in the past.

You're on the right track with your thinking, but I wouldn't necessarily call the BRZ a "much" better car than the Z. Better in some areas, worse in others. On the track, you're right, the Twins are sharper and better balanced (also more supportive seats/seating position). But for everyday driving, I think the 350z was actually better with its useful grunt and more upscale interior. (I had the 35th anniv with leather/Bose if it matters.)

Don't get me wrong, I love my FR-S, but I think you'll be disappointed if you buy a BRZ expecting an all-around improved 350z with rear seats. I think the better comparison might be RX-8 (with pistons) or NC Miata/S2000 coupe 2+2, if that makes sense.

[CSG Mike]

While I didn't have a 350Z, I've had a NA Miata and a G35.

How did you like the power on your Miata? A NA miata with bolt-ons will give a stockish BRZ/FRS nightmares in a straight line.

[JSube]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

While I didn't have a 350Z, I've had a NA Miata and a G35.

How did you like the power on your Miata? A NA miata with bolt-ons will give a stockish BRZ/FRS nightmares in a straight line.

My NA was kind of tired I think, but I didn't keep it long enough to want to mod it- didn't give it a chance to show me what it could be, probably.
The BRZ version I'm most interested in is the '17 Performance Pkg car, $1200 for Brembos/Sachs dampers & nice wheels is a surprising bargain. I think the revised final drive on the MT cars is a real positive and, who knows, maybe even the polishing they've done on the intake manifold will make mods a tiny bit more responsive. My plan would be to get an oil cooler for track use as has been recommended to me here and enjoy the car otherwise stock for a while. I think I'd be able to do a complete airflow upgrade this year still (intake to tailpipe) and get it tuned. Then flex fuel would be the final mod in a year or 2 if I've fully bonded with the car like I expect I will- not a bit interested in super/turbocharging the car, I'd just keep my STI if that's where my head was. Do you think that plan would let me stay in contact with the bolt-on Miata?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by JSube

My NA was kind of tired I think, but I didn't keep it long enough to want to mod it- didn't give it a chance to show me what it could be, probably.
The BRZ version I'm most interested in is the '17 Performance Pkg car, $1200 for Brembos/Sachs dampers & nice wheels is a surprising bargain. I think the revised final drive on the MT cars is a real positive and, who knows, maybe even the polishing they've done on the intake manifold will make mods a tiny bit more responsive. My plan would be to get an oil cooler for track use as has been recommended to me here and enjoy the car otherwise stock for a while. I think I'd be able to do a complete airflow upgrade this year still (intake to tailpipe) and get it tuned. Then flex fuel would be the final mod in a year or 2 if I've fully bonded with the car like I expect I will- not a bit interested in super/turbocharging the car, I'd just keep my STI if that's where my head was. Do you think that plan would let me stay in contact with the bolt-on Miata?

Ace header + tune will be enough for you to lightly pull on a bolt-on Miata. Intake mods don't really do much. A FP and Flex Fuel will net you some more power, but isn't necessary, as I expect you to also likely exit corners faster than the average Miata, which will assist in any straight passing.

[jmimac351]

JSube, I'll share my list in case you're interested. Some have a very long list of mods, which is fine. Others in this thread have shared that not much is needed, and there's a reason why...

I watched the Chin BRZ (the one Randy Pobst drove and raved about) and another BRZ owned by another Chief Instructor (and close friend) for a few years. They both held up very well. So, I decided to go the BRZ route, mostly because I just plain wanted one. I actually purchased the RCE Tarmac 2 Shocks from from my friend prior to buying my BRZ. There's no doubt that the RCE T2 shocks are awesome. He just wanted to have a little more comfort to drive his BRZ to long haul events (Florida to Watkins Glen, etc) with a little more comfort. He's had back trouble. He bought the RCE Yellow springs and Perrin sways and found that he wasn't giving up much (if anything) in terms of enjoyment or lap time. I drove his car with that setup and promptly sold the RCE T2 shocks. At the time, I also thought that I would want to drive my BRZ to events. I'm enjoying the grip I have (see below) and it probably would have been a good idea to keep them (for me). However, I still don't plan to buy them to replace what I have.

I ordered my car from a Chin Instructor who happens to be the sales manager at a Subaru dealer. Premium car with 2 options - Trunk mat and rear bumper applique... because I carry tools and spares in a tote in the trunk, unload from the trailer, then unload the trunk in the garage at the track.

So, after explaining a few things, here's my list:

• Clear bra for track turds / pelting.
• 10 year old Perma-Cool oil cooler I originally bought to install on my first Cobra and never did. Cooling the engine for track use is Job 1.
• Mocal oil filter adapter from BAT in Sarasota.
• AP Racing Sprint Brake kit from Essex Parts. AWESOME!!! Great not just in terms of performance, but consumables. I did 28 track days last year on the same set of rotors.
• RCE Yellow Springs.
• Perrin Sway bars which I haven't gotten around to install yet. Needed for tires with grip; otherwise, with street tires and RCE yellows, I'd probably just leave the stock bars in.
• Raceseng Caster / Camber plates. Super high quality.
• 245/620-17 Pirelli DH slicks. Scrub tires. $440 shipped for a set.
• 17x9 Apex wheels.
• Schroth ASM 4 Point harness.
• Stickers for more straight-line speed.

What I might like to have / considering...

• As my car is not a DD and I have good grip...A good seat. I loved the UltraShield SpecMiata seat in my Miatas and think it may fit great in this car as well. The 20 degree layback was perfect.
• I would not mind having another 50hp. I think a 2.5L 250hp BRZ just might be the perfect track car in terms of cost, consumables, and reliability. The chassis and AP brakes can handle it.

[JSube]

Super helpful, jmimac351, many thanks. 28 track days on a set of rotors is completely ridiculous! I think for a DD that sees some track, the Performance Pkg Brembos will be adequate for me, but the real message here is how the consumable costs plummet on a well-balanced 2800 lb car. I would like that (500 lbs lighter than my STI.) I love how you've set up your car and I've noted the straight line stickers you've attached. How many sets of Pirelli slicks did you use on those 28 days?

*Any idea if Raceseng warns people off of street driving with their camber plates? I know a lot of race plates do.
*Do you have a partial or full cage and attach the harnesses on that or is it an ASM belt attached in the back seat?
*It looks, perhaps, like you haven't done any headers/airflow or tuning on the car. Was that a reliability/durability decision? There seems to be a forum consensus that headers & tune will net 30+hp and E85 would get you close to that 50hp you were wishing for.
I have another question or 2 I'll pm you on, if you don't mind

[200hp/tonne]

Just my 2 cents, but having driven on track with increasing mods year by year, no other car feels quite as fun as a stock 86 with RCE yellows and great tires (MPSS or grippier)
All other mods come when you start getting serious

[JSube]

Originally Posted by 200hp/tonne

Just my 2 cents, but having driven on track with increasing mods year by year, no other car feels quite as fun as a stock 86 with RCE yellows and great tires (MPSS or grippier)
All other mods come when you start getting serious

I believe that, 200hp/tonne. The reason I'm so interested in the car is primarily the chassis & the RWD platform.
I think most of you owners probably feel like the chassis could easily handle another 30-40hp, especially with the chassis re-enforcements this year. I think having that bit of extra N/A power would keep me in the car long-term, unless I start seeing tuning horror stories (which I haven't really found yet.)

[200hp/tonne]

Originally Posted by JSube

I think having that bit of extra N/A power would keep me in the car long-term

I have that extra 30-40 hp (NA) and it has definitely kept me in the car for the long term, I wont get rid of this car until they make a variation with a CF tub when those become mainstream

[jmimac351]

Originally Posted by JSube

*Any idea if Raceseng warns people off of street driving with their camber plates? I know a lot of race plates do.
*Do you have a partial or full cage and attach the harnesses on that or is it an ASM belt attached in the back seat?
*It looks, perhaps, like you haven't done any headers/airflow or tuning on the car. Was that a reliability/durability decision? There seems to be a forum consensus that headers & tune will net 30+hp and E85 would get you close to that 50hp you were wishing for.
I have another question or 2 I'll pm you on, if you don't mind

I would have no concerns using the Raceseng plates on a DD car. The bearing appears to be very high quality and stout. My buddy sold his BRZ with over 40k miles, after I can't even count how many track days. (He bought a Mustang GT PP car with Recaros, a different kind of fun.) I don’t know how many of those days were with the Raceseng plates. Sebring is our home track, so to speak. If they aren't having an issue there, I'm not sure where they will. They are the expert about their parts and Ryan at Raceseng was extremely responsive when I reached out to him about something. I'd reach out to them if you have concerns.

The Schroth ASM shoulder belts are attached to the rear seat belt upper mount. If I do a seat, I may opt for the Essex Parts harness bar. They don't appear to be discussed much, but it appears to be well made.

I haven't touched the motor because it won't necessarily help me have more fun. Would it be more fun? Probably, but there’s a “ROF” dollar figure there too. A 2.5L with 250hp and a *warranty* would definitely be even more fun - cars with warranties are. It's not a small $$$ number for the Ace Header CSGMike mentioned, tuning, etc. The Ace header does appear to be the one to get and CSG Mike has a lot of experience with this stuff. Another 30 or 50hp in this car helps you get credit for the work you do in the corners, which is a "nice to have", but not necessary for me to have fun in this car. There isn’t a problem I’m trying to fix that needs HP. Reliability for a header / tune isn't a concern for me, it's just whether I want to spend a couple grand for 30hp and what the benefit is. I have considered E85 and have access to it. If I drove a car with proper exhaust, tune, and E85... maybe my perspective would be different. That I'm not rushing to add power and use it only as a track car is a compliment to the car, I guess.

I have considered a blower for the car, but haven't moved on it. They do add nice power, but I don't have the time or patience for the hassle it might bring given how I’m using the car. I'm at the track every month and I’ve witnessed 2 other cars go for years without any significant issues by staying NA.

There's a certain amount of pleasure to offloading the car at the end of the weekend knowing that there isn't an issue you need to worry about fixing. I'm convinced it does make the beer taste better.