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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 09-29-2012, 10:48 AM   #43
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LOL!!!!! funniest perspective I have seen in a week.
Good luck with that!!!!
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Old 09-29-2012, 04:22 PM   #44
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I didn't care much about the Cayman S until found out it was being used as the benchmark. The BRZ was the gateway that sparked my curiosity for and opened my eyes to it and my appreciation for it grew the more I read about it. I can see many on this forum upgrading to one. Just like how Celica/RSX owners used to upgrade to the G35/MR-S/S2000 who'd upgrade to the M3/Elise/Exige who'd upgrade to a Cayman/911 who'd upgrade to the R8 and beyond. When you're passionate about a car, you eventually look towards the next step up. Is the Cayman S a superior value? For the performance and quality of package, I think so. But its looks never have and still don't appeal to me. That's why I never paid it attention in the first place. Can't say I'd upgrade to one and be as happy as I am with the BRZ because I can't get past its looks. But it is growing on me.

In terms of badge snobbery, the BRZ is currently superior to the Cayman in one way: Intrigue. Drive the Cayman on public roads and everybody will recognize it as a Porsche and carry on. But right now, the BRZ has an air of mystique... people don't know what the heck it is! I see someone in the parking lot walking circles around mine once a week or so. I hold random traffic light conversations with strangers. This may not last but it's something I imagine only BRZ/FR-S owners can experience more over Cayman owners (unless the next gen Cayman undergoes a major makeover that deviates from iconic Porsche lines).
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:31 AM   #45
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Unfortunately I didn't (and couldn't) move fast enough in the last week on a very clean 2006 Cayman S for sale in my area. It had 70k miles and was listed for $28,500. That price puts it squarely in the price range of a new BRZ.

So this is another reason why people mention Caymans when talking about FRS/BRZs. Sure it's a new versus used comparison but some people can deal with the additional maintenance costs, which you could say is offset (at least somewhat) by the depreciation hit the BRZ (as a new car) will have.

Anyway, the Cayman sold before I could get my finances in order and make an offer
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:10 AM   #46
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Re: BRZ v Cayman S, here's a better argument...



FWIW I owned a 2006 Cayman S, bought used from my brother. I could / can afford it just fine. There are a number of small reasons why I've sold it on and I pick up my BRZ tomorrow, but make no mistake, the Cayman S is a much better car. I'll concede that my BRZ experience comes from only one test drive...which was enough for me to buy one that day...and I can already see where and why the two cars compare. But the feel behind the wheel of the Cayman S is something else. And while I'm not all about the hp ratings of my sports cars (I own a 912E for chrissakes!), I can say without a doubt that it makes a huge difference in why the CS is "better". It just does everything so well...and sacrifices nothing, IMO.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:36 PM   #47
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Well, this is not what I expected my first post to be...but here goes...

I have a Cayman R. It is actually the third Cayman I have owned and I love the thing. I have tracked all of them. I will likely be replacing it with a simliarly liveried FR-S. White with black mirrors, a black rear deck lid spoiler and some sort of black stripe along the bottom half of the sides of the car. Yes...so it will look just like the R I have right now.

I was pretty pleased with the FR-S I test drove last night. It was slow relative to what I am used to in a straight line, but I am a track guy. Straight line speed isn't as much fun as passing a guy with double your horsepower.

Anyway, the back and forth on the "Who can afford a Cayman or not" is pretty interesting. We all have different circumstances and place value on different things. I can't imagine a person with a family spending $75k on a car making less that $300k a year. If you are at or above that income level then you understand how marginal tax rates, tiered utility rates and all of the other expenses associated with life eat up that money really quickly. If you haven't been there, then it is hard to imagine. If anyone wants to see what a $1400 PG&E bill looks like, let me know.

My Cayman R (and the FR-S I will get to replace it) are acquired with the last dollars I earn. In other words, they are luxury items that are way behind the needs of my family. So I pay for them with the dollars, in effect, that are taxed at the highest rate. My Cayman is $1300 a month (no matter if you "pay cash" and depreciate it, lease it, or finance it...6 of one...) and that means I have to earn $2600 a month next year to pay for it. I only need to earn $1000 a month to pay for the FR-S. The Aussies and Brits will laugh to hear me complain about 50% tax rates...but it is what it is.

So I can have an FR-S AND Not have to work the hours to earn the extra $20,000...OR if I choose to continue to work as hard I get the FR-S AND I keep $10,000 to dedicate to other things.

So...THANK GOD for the FR-S

It is a value that can't be beat. Unless a Cayman driver has a fair amount of track experience I will still be quicker in the FR-S. I know. I was passed by Miatas with infuriating regularity when I was new to track days.

Now it is time to go learn from all of you. And hope that the little Boxer 4 can handle sustained high lateral Gs The first generation Cayman S will blow up if you run a track suspension/alignment and R comp tires for too long.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:55 PM   #48
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DaveN007, you have done an excellent job summarizing the incredible value of the frs /brz ... coming from a person that has owned multiple cayman's that is pretty good real world review. I think a lot of people owning differing cars come on this forum and get pissed off that a lowly toybaru gets compared to higher end sports cars, but this is why it is a legitimate compare. Is a toybaru better han a Cayman R? Hell no, but it is a close enough compare from a track car capability perspective... at a fraction of the cost (comparing new).

I like your first post. You should post more.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:09 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Captain Insano View Post
DaveN007, you have done an excellent job summarizing the incredible value of the frs /brz ... coming from a person that has owned multiple cayman's that is pretty good real world review. I think a lot of people owning differing cars come on this forum and get pissed off that a lowly toybaru gets compared to higher end sports cars, but this is why it is a legitimate compare. Is a toybaru better han a Cayman R? Hell no, but it is a close enough compare from a track car capability perspective... at a fraction of the cost (comparing new).

I like your first post. You should post more.
Thanks for the kind words. For anyone who has "driven" Laguna Seca on a PS3 or XBox360 (or in real life) here is my R from the inside following my brother in his new M5 around the track to post some numbers and prove that the Tesla MSP "ain't all that". LOL. Long story. Turn up the sound and you can hear my engine. Stock exhaust. I run in the low 1:40s on MPSCs. A properly set up FR-S should run in the 1:50s with a good driver and nice tires.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWsyNitKyC8&list=UUb-_8laQfpwJ16cqV6l78Zw&index=2&feature=plcp"]BMW M5 versus Tesla S at Laguna Seca - YouTube[/ame]
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:45 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by DaveN007 View Post
So I can have an FR-S AND Not have to work the hours to earn the extra $20,000...OR if I choose to continue to work as hard I get the FR-S AND I keep $10,000 to dedicate to other things.

So...THANK GOD for the FR-S

It is a value that can't be beat. Unless a Cayman driver has a fair amount of track experience I will still be quicker in the FR-S. I know. I was passed by Miatas with infuriating regularity when I was new to track days.
Thank you. I'll put it like this: Even when one can comfortably afford a Cayman S, the value presented by the FR-S is difficult to pass up (I was in that position and went with the FR-S).

And the fact that magazines are even comparing the two speaks volumes about the FR-S/BRZ/86. C&D ranked the Cayman S ahead of the FR-S, even with prices factored in. I disagree, but I can understand that position having driven both.

I'll just put a couple of other comparison results out there:

Autocar: GT86 > Cayman R, Boxster S, and Carrera S:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20579

Autoexpress: GT86 > Boxster and 911:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21979

McCausland, Automobile: BRZ > Boxster S, Carrera S:
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...vember_update/

Car and Driver: Cayman S > FR-S:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18332

Motor Trend: Carrera S > BRZ:
http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...r/viewall.html

Top Gear: GT86 > Carrera S:
https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0By...TlBbTdxZ1U1TDA

Obviously the jury is split with some reviewers preferring the Porsches, but I'll say it again. The fact that the Toyobaru twins are even being compared against Porsches as pure drivers' cars (and winning in some instances) tells you all you need to know about their value.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:48 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by DaveN007 View Post
Well, this is not what I expected my first post to be...but here goes...

I have a Cayman R. It is actually the third Cayman I have owned and I love the thing. I have tracked all of them. I will likely be replacing it with a simliarly liveried FR-S. White with black mirrors, a black rear deck lid spoiler and some sort of black stripe along the bottom half of the sides of the car. Yes...so it will look just like the R I have right now.

I was pretty pleased with the FR-S I test drove last night. It was slow relative to what I am used to in a straight line, but I am a track guy. Straight line speed isn't as much fun as passing a guy with double your horsepower.

Anyway, the back and forth on the "Who can afford a Cayman or not" is pretty interesting. We all have different circumstances and place value on different things. I can't imagine a person with a family spending $75k on a car making less that $300k a year. If you are at or above that income level then you understand how marginal tax rates, tiered utility rates and all of the other expenses associated with life eat up that money really quickly. If you haven't been there, then it is hard to imagine. If anyone wants to see what a $1400 PG&E bill looks like, let me know.

My Cayman R (and the FR-S I will get to replace it) are acquired with the last dollars I earn. In other words, they are luxury items that are way behind the needs of my family. So I pay for them with the dollars, in effect, that are taxed at the highest rate. My Cayman is $1300 a month (no matter if you "pay cash" and depreciate it, lease it, or finance it...6 of one...) and that means I have to earn $2600 a month next year to pay for it. I only need to earn $1000 a month to pay for the FR-S. The Aussies and Brits will laugh to hear me complain about 50% tax rates...but it is what it is.

So I can have an FR-S AND Not have to work the hours to earn the extra $20,000...OR if I choose to continue to work as hard I get the FR-S AND I keep $10,000 to dedicate to other things.

So...THANK GOD for the FR-S

It is a value that can't be beat. Unless a Cayman driver has a fair amount of track experience I will still be quicker in the FR-S. I know. I was passed by Miatas with infuriating regularity when I was new to track days.

Now it is time to go learn from all of you. And hope that the little Boxer 4 can handle sustained high lateral Gs The first generation Cayman S will blow up if you run a track suspension/alignment and R comp tires for too long.
Well said. My BRZ is one of the lowest-cost new car I've ever had. Every time I look at it, I have to remind myself and my wife of how much I paid for it. And if not for the availability of the BRZ/FRS, I would have banish myself to more economically sensible and bland cars.

In my previous higher-maintenance cars (E46 M3, 540, x5 4.4 e.g.), my business side of me always complain of the need to pay for regular costly maintenance (tires, service e.g.) that does not fully commensurate with the driving pleasure. This is probably because I'm not daily exploiting the car's potential during their routine chores of transportation from A to B.

Prior to the BRZ purchase, I was yet again on a mission to find the best low-mileage '98 911 I could afford. Just when I had a few on my short-list (more availability now thanks to the economy), further research and logic tells me most are low-mileage and garage queens for a simple reason. Heck, some owners are so terrified of IMS issues that they refused to drive the car more in fear of a $30k repair bill. IMO, the agony and money spent per mile is just not worth it.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:29 PM   #52
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Well said. My BRZ is one of the lowest-cost new car I've ever had. Every time I look at it, I have to remind myself and my wife of how much I paid for it. And if not for the availability of the BRZ/FRS, I would have banish myself to more economically sensible and bland cars.

In my previous higher-maintenance cars (E46 M3, 540, x5 4.4 e.g.), my business side of me always complain of the need to pay for regular costly maintenance (tires, service e.g.) that does not fully commensurate with the driving pleasure. This is probably because I'm not daily exploiting the car's potential during their routine chores of transportation from A to B.

Prior to the BRZ purchase, I was yet again on a mission to find the best low-mileage '98 911 I could afford. Just when I had a few on my short-list (more availability now thanks to the economy), further research and logic tells me most are low-mileage and garage queens for a simple reason. Heck, some owners are so terrified of IMS issues that they refused to drive the car more in fear of a $30k repair bill. IMO, the agony and money spent per mile is just not worth it.
I have a Civic Hybrid in my stable, too. Our main Family Truckster is a Honda Odyssey Touring, but we have a Mercedes SUV, also. For a while I thought it was funny when one of the Hondas would go in for service and the service advisor would gently spring the $89 bill on me like it was really bad news. Then the $500 Mercedes bills started to piss me off. LOL.

I actually drove my Civic to test drive the FR-S and I think some of my comments and questions were puzzling to the sales guy. I said something about being at the track a few weeks ago and he looked at me funny.

The great thing about my Civic is that it is faster on the highway than my Porsche. Because it is invisible. Pass people at 85 and they don't bat an eye. Do that in a Porsche with a wing on the back and people flip you off and call the cops. Or...if you try to drive the speed limit, guys in pick up trucks ride your bumper. It is always guys in pickup trucks.

That is another reason why the BRZ/FR-S is cool. It has the same enthusiast flare that attracts positive attention from people passionate about cars...but it doesn't identify you as a "1 percenter". Lot's of greedy, envious, spiteful people out there these days. When I saw a nice car when I was younger and dirt poor I would think about how I could earn the money to get one...if that is what I wanted. Now people chalk up decades of education and 100 hour weeks as "taking more than your fair share". It is bizarre. I isn't worth the hassle anymore. I am "shrugging".

My second Cayman was parked in a garage in San Francisco. My license plate used to be CAYMN GT. Someone took a black sharpie and changed the C to a G. GAYMN GT. I must admit it was the funniest act of vandalism I have seen, and it gave me an excuse to run without a front plate.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:52 PM   #53
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Interesting mini-demographic going on here...just this morning Julie and I were out for a drive and came across a beautiful black Cayman S. As we passed, he was checking out our car with a big smile on his face. I, of course, was checking out his car...also with a big smile on his face. Either he was thinking 'what a stooge' or was feeling the shared love of great sports cars.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:50 PM   #54
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Australian Porsche prices!

[QUOTE=pyro530;461796]The Smart Money

Car and Driver puts the FR-S and a few other cars up against more expensive "similar" cars.





http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test[/


Well if you live in Australia the Porsche is nearly six times the price of a
GT 86/BRZ.

So many many thanks to Mr Toyota & Mr Subaru.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:50 PM   #55
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It would be interesting to see it pitted against a base cayman.
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:47 PM   #56
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You can add me to the list of former Cayman drivers. I got out of my 06 CS to get my BRZ. I've only had the BRZ for a week, but I am enjoying it very much. The Cayman is a great car, and is definitely a more complete car than the BRZ, but I'm certain that I can have just as much fun in the BRZ, and it's a lot more suitable for the day to day drive in my opinion.

I've driven a lot of great cars in my day, and the BRZ is no different. It is exactly what Subaru intended it to be, a great, sporty, nimble car for under 30,000. It's not meant to run laps with a Cayman, and it won't.
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