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Old 04-12-2012, 10:51 PM   #29
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the TC rev hangs? Did not know that, does it occur in the camry as well then?
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:35 PM   #30
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confused on why people keep saying 200 hp when it had only 170 something whp on dynos?
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Old 04-13-2012, 12:15 AM   #31
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confused on why people keep saying 200 hp when it had only 170 something whp on dynos?
dyno is wheel horse power and factors in drivetrain loss.

the 200hp is the crank rating and what manufacturers list for their cars
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Old 04-13-2012, 12:36 AM   #32
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dyno is wheel horse power and factors in drivetrain loss.

the 200hp is the crank rating and what manufacturers list for their cars
yes but its bad that they market it at 200hp when its not really that. whp is what matters. What makes it to the wheels. not figurative hp that is not being wasted.
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Old 04-13-2012, 12:46 AM   #33
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yes but its bad that they market it at 200hp when its not really that. whp is what matters. What makes it to the wheels. not figurative hp that is not being wasted.
Crank rating is more reliable since it is regulated/standardized. It is well known in tuning circles that different chassis dyno manufacturers get different whp results. Plus independent shops each have their own testing procedure. Some shops even play with correction factors to make their customer cars look better...

But since every manufacturer follows the same regs comparing their figures is more reliable.

New to cars?
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:00 AM   #34
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Crank rating is more reliable since it is regulated/standardized. It is well known in tuning circles that different chassis dyno manufacturers get different whp results. Plus independent shops each have their own testing procedure. Some shops even play with correction factors to make their customer cars look better...

But since every manufacturer follows the same regs comparing their figures is more reliable.

New to cars?
not new i just don't like how manufactures use a sly tactic to say this car has this much hp, when people care about whp, and it clearly does not have that whp.

Also on the dyno testing it does not matter the manufacture knew that it made that at the crank and could of easily said what it really made in whp with out a dyno.
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:10 AM   #35
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not new i just don't like how manufactures use a sly tactic to say this car has this much hp, when people care about whp, and it clearly does not have that whp.

Also on the dyno testing it does not matter the manufacture knew that it made that at the crank and could of easily said what it really made in whp with out a dyno.
It's the best indicator of engine performance because that is all it is measuring. Drivetrain losses are much more difficult to quantify.

When tuning an engine an engine dyno is best. Chassis dyno can then be used to evaluate different gear oil parasitic losses or reciprocating mass reductions for example.

Since it is the most consistent way there is nothing 'sly' about it.
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:12 AM   #36
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lol
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:51 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by koyv90 View Post
not new i just don't like how manufactures use a sly tactic to say this car has this much hp, when people care about whp, and it clearly does not have that whp.

Also on the dyno testing it does not matter the manufacture knew that it made that at the crank and could of easily said what it really made in whp with out a dyno.
It's the best indicator of engine performance because that is all it is measuring. Drivetrain losses are much more difficult to quantify.

When tuning an engine an engine dyno is best. Chassis dyno can then be used to evaluate different gear oil parasitic losses or reciprocating mass reductions for example.

Since it is the most consistent way there is nothing 'sly' about it.
^ What he said. You can think of it like retail prices. Prices here in the US are advertised without tax, because it's going to vary depending on location. WHP is going to depend on various things, BHP (200hp) is what everyone can use as a constant.
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Old 04-13-2012, 08:44 AM   #38
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It's the best indicator of engine performance because that is all it is measuring. Drivetrain losses are much more difficult to quantify.

When tuning an engine an engine dyno is best. Chassis dyno can then be used to evaluate different gear oil parasitic losses or reciprocating mass reductions for example.

Since it is the most consistent way there is nothing 'sly' about it.
Yesterday I wanted to say that the best way to truly evaluate whether the engine is overrated from the factory or not would be put one, out of a production car sold blindly, on an engine dyno and then back into the car and onto a chassis dyno. I figured your average tuning house won't have that kind of equipment though, only the larger ones.
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Old 04-13-2012, 09:26 AM   #39
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Back OT:

I know a few people who can't understand the sportscar "thing" even though they are of the demographic that might be interested in one, and generally like cars. They'd likely be more inclined to go for the tC (if it looked better!). I wonder if in some cases it is because these guys have never had the experience of driving a first-rate communicative sportscar or even sports coupe/sedan like a BMW 328. I don't know that I would have any real interest in buying this car myself if I had not driven my father's 911 regularly as a teen - it was such an amazing experience I was hooked, and I am hoping the Toyobaru gives me a good chunk of that feeling.
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Old 04-13-2012, 09:39 AM   #40
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I know a few people who can't understand the sportscar "thing" even though they are of the demographic that might be interested in one, and generally like cars. They'd likely be more inclined to go for the tC (if it looked better!). I wonder if in some cases it is because these guys have never had the experience of driving a first-rate communicative sportscar or even sports coupe/sedan like a BMW 328. I don't know that I would have any real interest in buying this car myself if I had not driven my father's 911 regularly as a teen - it was such an amazing experience I was hooked, and I am hoping the Toyobaru gives me a good chunk of that feeling.
I'm not sure about your age but I can say in my age group (early-mid 20's), very few people I know are really interested in cars. I guess they just never really got any experience outside of playing Gran Turismo 1 for a few weeks till they got bored of it. These are the people who would go for a tC.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:38 PM   #41
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the TC rev hangs? Did not know that, does it occur in the camry as well then?
Yes. Very much so. The pedals are poorly positioned as well so heel toe downshifting was already kinda of ridiculous. Add in the fact the car's revs hang when shifting and it becomes a task. It's not impossible, but it's not effortless like a lot of other cars-mostly older cars that use a throttle cable and not the modern drive-by-wire used today.
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:18 PM   #42
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^^ I miss my old throttle cable cars lol

Back on topic

From the POV of Joe Average that walks into a Scion dealer...I think having the FRS there helps bring people in but once you see both cars and compare numbers and price, I think most people would go for the tc (forum members being the obvious exception). Its bigger, more practical because of it, more torque makes it easy enough to just drive from point A to point B. and its cheaper, by some 4-5 grand, before accessories. Just my thoughts on the matter.
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