SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[M0nk3y]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

smh lol

Go ahead and start protesting every ND in CS that is lower than OE and running -2.5* of camber and is completely legal.

I'll wait here and enjoy my popcorn


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[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

Go ahead and start protesting every ND in CS that is lower than OE and running -2.5* of camber and is completely legal.

I'll wait here and enjoy my popcorn


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

please go educate yourself on MacPherson struts.

NDs are double wishbone....yeah not sure what the NDs have to do with the front MacPherson struts and camber gain, but I'm sure you do

[oinojo]

Struts will hardly gain any camber if any from lowering. Typically .1 or so but not half a degree.

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

please go educate yourself on MacPherson struts.

Not all MacPherson struts are exactly the same. Ours do gain a tiny bit of camber under compression (up to a point, beyond which it will stop gaining and actually start losing IIRC).

Anyways, if you want to protest someone, you'll have to show they didn't install the washer correctly or you're gonna need a great pair of calipers. Given that Koni have admitted to their issue and provided a fix, you've got a pretty high bar to clear to show noncompliance.

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by renfield90

Not all MacPherson struts are exactly the same. Ours do gain a tiny bit of camber under compression (up to a point, beyond which it will stop gaining and actually start losing IIRC).

Anyways, if you want to protest someone, you'll have to show they didn't install the washer correctly or you're gonna need a great pair of calipers. Given that Koni have admitted to their issue and provided a fix, you've got a pretty high bar to clear to show noncompliance.

Not really too high of a bar to examine the Koni strut. These cars front suspension is not that complicated. You got the 4 holes on the strut and the holes on the chassis to examine.

Shock degassing alone will not net you -0.4 to -0.6 alone.
To get that amount of extra camber something has to be off.

Not surprised that folks with Koni strut replacements are up in arms.
Many owners claimed ignorance about the illegality of those struts when the source of the extra camber gained was plain as day!

Here we are again, people with the Koni washers are claiming extra camber.
Here we are again, Koni people are up in arms claiming that there must be some sort of "Koni engineering" miracle that nets more legal camber....All while not one Koni strut owner has posted measurements of the corrective washer.

My guess would be the either the washer is too small and thus provides wiggle room (thus misaligning the center of the mount hole and resulting extra camber).

Think about folks. The OEM crash bolt is only 2mm smaller in diameter than original. Simplistically speaking, that means it provides 1mm of extra outboard or inboard adjustment, which typically nets about 0.5 degree of camber adjustment. To get enough extra camber to achieve -1.8 or more I would imagine that you would need about extra 0.5mm or more of wiggle room.

While witch hunting after for 0.1-0.2mm of variance might be unreasonable, looking for half a mil or more is much easier. Even harbor freight calipers can handle that

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

Not really too high of a bar to examine the Koni strut. These cars front suspension is not that complicated. You got the 4 holes on the strut and the holes on the chassis to examine.

Shock degassing alone will not net you -0.4 to -0.6 alone.
To get that amount of extra camber something has to be off.

Not surprised that folks with Koni strut replacements are up in arms.
Many owners claimed ignorance about the illegality of those struts when the source of the extra camber gained was plain as day!

Here we are again, people with the Koni washers are claiming extra camber.
Here we are again, Koni people are up in arms claiming that there must be some sort of "Koni engineering" miracle that nets more legal camber....All while not one Koni strut owner has posted measurements of the corrective washer.

My guess would be the either the washer is too small and thus provides wiggle room (thus misaligning the center of the mount hole and resulting extra camber).

Think about folks. The OEM crash bolt is only 2mm smaller in diameter than original. Simplistically speaking, that means it provides 1mm of extra outboard or inboard adjustment, which typically nets about 0.5 degree of camber adjustment. To get enough extra camber to achieve -1.8 or more I would imagine that you would need about extra 0.5mm or more of wiggle room.

While witch hunting after for 0.1-0.2mm of variance might be unreasonable, looking for half a mil or more is much easier. Even harbor freight calipers can handle that

I'd be more willing to take the measurements myself if it didn't mean having to spend another $120 on a new alignment. Particularly since I'm only running regional events, and not even at the pointy end locally. haha

[G_Ride]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

I'd be more willing to take the measurements myself if it didn't mean having to spend another $120 on a new alignment. Particularly since I'm only running regional events, and not even at the pointy end locally. haha

The only thing you'll need to readjust is camber, which is just pushing the strut inwards as much as possible before torquing down that top bolt. Just get that useless WWRB driver we both know to help you. And I just saved you $120. You're welcome

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by G_Ride

The only thing you'll need to readjust is camber, which is just pushing the strut inwards as much as possible before torquing down that top bolt. Just get that useless WWRB driver we both know to help you. And I just saved you $120. You're welcome

The way I work on cars I'd screw it up somehow. I r bAD MehCanIK

[Locust]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

Not really too high of a bar to examine the Koni strut. These cars front suspension is not that complicated. You got the 4 holes on the strut and the holes on the chassis to examine.

Shock degassing alone will not net you -0.4 to -0.6 alone.
To get that amount of extra camber something has to be off.

Not surprised that folks with Koni strut replacements are up in arms.
Many owners claimed ignorance about the illegality of those struts when the source of the extra camber gained was plain as day!

Here we are again, people with the Koni washers are claiming extra camber.
Here we are again, Koni people are up in arms claiming that there must be some sort of "Koni engineering" miracle that nets more legal camber....All while not one Koni strut owner has posted measurements of the corrective washer.

My guess would be the either the washer is too small and thus provides wiggle room (thus misaligning the center of the mount hole and resulting extra camber).

Think about folks. The OEM crash bolt is only 2mm smaller in diameter than original. Simplistically speaking, that means it provides 1mm of extra outboard or inboard adjustment, which typically nets about 0.5 degree of camber adjustment. To get enough extra camber to achieve -1.8 or more I would imagine that you would need about extra 0.5mm or more of wiggle room.

While witch hunting after for 0.1-0.2mm of variance might be unreasonable, looking for half a mil or more is much easier. Even harbor freight calipers can handle that

Okay so maybe someone else can describe why this is then but here's my personal experience with two different twins and the exact same Konis on both. I had an FR-S RS1.0 previously and with the Koni Yellows with centering washers it sat at -1.1 degrees on both fronts on TRD springs. Moving to a regular FR-S with OEM springs and using the exact same Konis I'm at -1.7 on both fronts. These are both measured with me in the driver seat. The only things that changed were the springs, different set of OEM crash bolts, and the car.

So my understanding of that would then be that there's possibly a variance in crash bolts, a variance in the bolt holes on the cars, and some measurable change from what springs are in use. Someone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by Locust

Okay so maybe someone else can describe why this is then but here's my personal experience with two different twins and the exact same Konis on both. I had an FR-S RS1.0 previously and with the Koni Yellows with centering washers it sat at -1.1 degrees on both fronts on TRD springs. Moving to a regular FR-S with OEM springs and using the exact same Konis I'm at -1.7 on both fronts. These are both measured with me in the driver seat. The only things that changed were the springs, different set of OEM crash bolts, and the car.

So my understanding of that would then be that there's possibly a variance in crash bolts, a variance in the bolt holes on the cars, and some measurable change from what springs are in use. Someone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Differences in installs can have some effect. I found a -0.3 change depending on if I push in the top hat inboard or not. I found a -0.1 change depending on which direction the bolts were facing (threaded side is a bit narrower).

There is also a possibility that the stepped washer that Koni supplies wears or loosens, or if paint around the strut hole broke/wore off to give more play.

You could also have a difference in alignment racks. If digital laser type, they do need to be calibrated. You're talking a tenth or two of variance though...not half a degree or more.

[Biggins]

The ND is a different suspension that nets a ridiculous amount of camber and ride height from the Konis. It's what it is.

If I remember right, we had a wheels off impound at Nationals in 2015, I believe it was because of the camber question on our cars and the reason Koni corrected their full body shocks before the 2016 season (my timing might be off). There was no protest that year, but I think it contributed to how well Koni drivers did in 2015 vs. after 2015 when the Koni correction came out. How much did it contribute? It was somewhere in the range of not at all to barely within noise. I remember before the spacer, cars easily had -2.0-2.3 up front. I can believe -1.7, but if it's still at -2.0 with Koni's spacer, I'd be suspicious. Either way, I won't be leading any protests unless it's to get the ND moved to B-Street.

If someone wants to protest camber on a street FR-S/BRZ, I think they're going to have a pretty tough time winning the protest unless it's something extremely blatant.

[MarkR171]

Hands off my ND going to B-Street. Go play in D-Street! haha

[brz7400]

Originally Posted by MarkR171

Hands off my ND going to B-Street. Go play in D-Street! haha

Sorry off topic, but how is that Alfa 4C for autocross?

[MarkR171]

Originally Posted by brz7400

Sorry off topic, but how is that Alfa 4C for autocross?

So much fun. No power steering, so plenty of feedback but requires plenty of effort in tight corners and counter steering. The car in it's current form loves to rotate when lifting or braking but will immediately hook up when you get back on the gas. I'm still learning to trust it, because at first, it felt like the car wanted to murder you with the back end immediately coming around when you lift and steer at the same time... getting back on the gas early and trusting it is incredibly rewarding.

I have this wild (probably stupid) dream of putting Hoosiers on the car and trying out SSP after nationals.

Video from last Saturday
https://www.instagram.com/p/BU5I-ZJhY0P/