What is your prediction on FT86 power and Subaru 086a power?

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by 86Fan

your prediction that it could fall in the 140 range seems somewhat low since the base is already making 141 lb-ft.

Actually, I didn't offer a prediction but only said that 70-75 ftlbs/L was more realistic for NA (especially given Toyota's commitment to cost cutting). I agree that the 2.0 is unlikely to be as low as 141 ftlbs, but there's no way it'll be 170 ftlbs.

My prediction is 150 ftlbs.

Originally Posted by 86Fan

the example of the cts with DI, hasn't the torque increased by 20 lb-ft compared to the base version with VVT?

Yes, though that's a 3.6L.

[86Fan]

Originally Posted by Deslock

Actually, I didn't offer a prediction but only said that 70-75 ftlbs/L was more realistic for NA (especially given Toyota's commitment to cost cutting). I agree that the 2.0 is unlikely to be as low as 141 ftlbs, but there's no way it'll be 170 ftlbs.

My prediction is 150 ftlbs.

Yes, though that's a 3.6L.

How would 70-75, which equates to 140-150 lb-ft, be "more realistic" with DI when the base engine produces 141 lb-ft and the STI NA concept producing 145 lb-ft? The IS 350 example I gave produces 79 lb-ft per liter. How would you explain that?

I think your prediction is still low when that is only an increase of 5 lb-ft compared to the STI NA concept. I honestly think your prediction is no more realistic than mine.

I realize that both engines are 3.6 but one has VVT while the other has DI included and the latter producing an increase of 20 lb-ft torque. Don't you then think it is possible for the FT to hit 160 lb-ft with DI and reworked internals?

[86Fan]

Originally Posted by Axel

google translated from the BestMotoring.cn

" The earlier Japanese media reports rumors appear to have been confirmed, Subaru / Toyota's test team has a formal presence in the north Nuerburgring circuit, and began a highly disguised two-door sports car prototype for testing. German media have generally agreed that the forthcoming launch in 2011 of Subaru 086A STI, will be powered by 300 hp output level of the EJ25 2.5L turbocharged four-cylinder engine with six-speed manual gearbox and rear-drive layout, a new car The performance will be very close to the BMW 135i Coupe! As new car prices, the market is estimated that with the cheaper than the BMW 135i over the past three Zhisi Cheng."

300HP wouldn't be exactly true to the AE86, but would still make for an awesome car, albeit in a totally different manner! I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

你德狗吧 you are German dog bar!

Would be really awesome if this indeed is true with 300 hp sti version with rwd. In two years time, it could be hitting $36000. However, I think they were testing the NA engine in nurb... that car had barely any openings for cooling.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by 86Fan

How would 70-75, which equates to 140-150 lb-ft, be "more realistic" with DI when the base engine produces 141 lb-ft and the STI NA concept producing 145 lb-ft?

85 ftlbs/L is unrealistic since that kind of specific output would be prohibitively expensive in a NA car meant to be a cheap successor to the AE86.

Keep in mind that there are rumors that Toyota may opt for an unimpressive 157hp to cut costs. I don't think that'll happen, but if it does then it's also conceivable that FT86 could have only 141 ftlbs. I consider that unlikely (as I wrote before), but until we hear otherwise those are both possibilities.

Also, an STI NA concept making 73 ftlbs/L doesn't really support the assertion that a subsequent production vehicle will make 85 ftlbs/L.

Originally Posted by 86Fan

The IS 350 example I gave produces 79 lb-ft per liter. How would you explain that?

The IS 350 is a much more expensive vehicle. Also unless I'm mistaken, the slightly-cheaper-but-still-pricey IS 250 has 74 ftlbs/L (with DI too).

Originally Posted by 86Fan

I realize that both engines are 3.6 but one has VVT while the other has DI included and the latter producing an increase of 20 lb-ft torque. Don't you then think it is possible for the FT to hit 160 lb-ft with DI and reworked internals?

160 ftlbs is possible, but unlikely since it'd be costly.

In any case, obviously we're both excited about the prospects of the NA 2.0L FT86. Your prediction is 170 ftlbs and mine is 150 ftlbs. Rather than have a petty argument, how about we to agree to disagree and move on.

[86Fan]

Originally Posted by Deslock

85 ftlbs/L is unrealistic since that kind of specific output would be prohibitively expensive in a NA car meant to be a cheap successor to the AE86.

Keep in mind that there are rumors that Toyota may opt for an unimpressive 157hp to cut costs. I don't think that'll happen, but if it does then it's also conceivable that FT86 could have only 141 ftlbs. I consider that unlikely (as I wrote before), but until we hear otherwise those are both possibilities.

Also, an STI NA concept making 73 ftlbs/L doesn't really support the assertion that a subsequent production vehicle will make 85 ftlbs/L.

The IS 350 is a much more expensive vehicle. Also unless I'm mistaken, the slightly-cheaper-but-still-pricey IS 250 has 74 ftlbs/L (with DI too).

160 ftlbs is possible, but unlikely since it'd be costly.

In any case, obviously we're both excited about the prospects of the NA 2.0L FT86. Your prediction is 170 ftlbs and mine is 150 ftlbs. Rather than have a petty argument, how about we to agree to disagree and move on.

It seems like you don't get what I'm saying though. I'm saying your prediction is not "more realistic" than mine so 150 lb-ft isn't really realistic either. I already stated that mine could be high.

Cut cost by reducing output? Wouldn't it be more effective to cut cost via engine size.

I didn't say the STI NA concept will get to 170. I'm saying it is highly unlikely that there will be only a increase of 5 lb-ft of torque based on what you are saying.

The IS 350 is a much more expensive vehicle. Also unless I'm mistaken, the slightly-cheaper-but-still-pricey IS 250 has 74 ftlbs/L (with DI too).

You do realize that the 2GR-FE/2GR-FSE is shared inside the Toyota family. 2GR-FSE has the DI while the other doesn't. The 2GR-FE is used on Camry's to RAV4's. What other components would make this engine much more expensive?

The boxer engine is expensive to manufacturer so how much more costly would it be to increase torque to 160 lb-ft? Keep in mind Toyota is going to add DI so that extra cost is already factored in. Are you saying that 15-19 lb-ft torque increase can't be the result of DI?

Yes, we won't agree but I'm just trying to point out the fallacy in your statement.

Edit:IS 250 isn't really relevant to what is being discussed here. 3.5L in a camry gets 248 lb-ft of torque and the DI in the is350 gets 277lb-ft. A 29 lb-ft increase and an increase from 71 lb-ft per liter to 79 lb-ft per liter. Just shows that your range of 70-75 lb-ft/L does not hold up unless you can show me that this motor is "costly".

If you think 141 lb-ft is conceivable with this engine recieving at least DI then I think you are going to be surprised and basically your rating is "unrealistic".

It also brings me to another point. Why does toyota have to use boxer engines and not use their own engines? Wouldn't using their own engines be more cost effective?

[scape]

my thoughts, these are for HP

NA:
2.0- 165-175
2.5- 220-230

turbo:
2.0- 220-230
2.5- 265-275

[scape]

i also want to know why they can't stuff their own engine in there (toyota that is)

[Kenji]

Originally Posted by Axel

LOL! So that's what the Subie's gonna be powered by... pure soundwaves!

[prighello]

I'm guessing:

180-190hp
155-165tq

Likely will rev over 7K.

[Jordo!]

So the ugly sister car will get the goods, huh? Fuck that -- I'll either do FI or an engine swap. i'm convinced this car can be a 370 Z beater for several grand less.

[Jordo!]

^^^ All good points.

I just want the purty one

[JDMinc]

Originally Posted by Axel

I want the one with the intercooler in the grille!

Hopefully both versions will get one of those

[White Comet]

Originally Posted by scape

my thoughts, these are for HP

NA:
2.0- 165-175
2.5- 220-230

turbo:
2.0- 220-230
2.5- 265-275

I can't see them bringing out a 2.0L turbo with the same power as a NA 2.5L.

We still don't know anything about a turbo in either model right now, anyway.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by 86Fan

It seems like you don't get what I'm saying though. I'm saying your prediction is not "more realistic" than mine so 150 lb-ft isn't really realistic either.

My logic goes something like this:

1. We know that the FT86 will be an inexpensive car.
2. We know that attaining specific torque output as high as 85 ftlbs/L from a NA piston engine is very expensive.
3. Therefore, your prediction of 85 ftlbs/L is not possible for the FT86.
4. However, 75 ftlbs/L is possible.
5. Something that is possible is more realistic than something that is impossible.
6. Therefore, 75 ftlbs/L is a more realistic prediction for the FT86 than 85 ftlbs/L.

Originally Posted by 86Fan

Are you saying that 15-19 lb-ft torque increase can't be the result of DI?

It's unlikely to be that high in a cheap NA 2.0L.

Originally Posted by 86Fan

Yes, we won't agree but I'm just trying to point out the fallacy in your statement.

Which statement is fallacious?

Originally Posted by 86Fan

If you think 141 lb-ft is conceivable with this engine recieving at least DI then I think you are going to be surprised and basically your rating is "unrealistic".

I'll be surprised if the NA FT86 has anything below 145 ftlbs, but at least it's a remote possibility (while 170 ftlbs is not, unless Toyota repositions it as an upscale vehicle).

Tell you what... I'll wager my 150 ftlbs against your 170 ftlbs. I propose that the rules be:

1. The bet is for NA only.
2. If Toyota uses a different size engine, we'll compare my 75 ftlbs/L to your 85 ftlbs/L.
3. The wager is void if the FT86 base price climbs above $35k (since then Toyota will have repositioned the car as no longer being a cheap RWD successor to the AE86).
4. We'll go by the officially announced torque value for the production car.
5. Whichever one of us is closer gets to pick a charity that the other person must donate $10 USD to.
6. If it's 160 ftlbs, we both donate $10 to charity.

What do you say?