Just came back from the Toyota Dealership LOL

[keithr]

It's funny... I see a lot of posts about clueless salespeople, horrible and rude attitudes, and it being the buyer's responsibility to know everything about the car before they go look at it....

It didn't used to be like that.

Salespeople used to be sent to product training by the dealers and/or manufacturers. Their role was not only to facilitate a sale, but to be a PRODUCT EXPERT. They answered questions, told you things (true things, not bullshit lies) that you didn't know, tidbits, feedback from other customers, etc. If you asked "How many horsepower does the engine make?" they would give you the correct answer.

Salespeople used to be courteous and friendly. Granted, years of abuse by the declining state of the general public has certainly taken its toll on the demeanor of the majority of customer-facing roles, however, that's a cop out excuse.

I remember test drives that used to be overnight. I'm not old enough for it to have been my purchase, but I distinctly remember my father taking cars home overnight. They'd say "take it home, let the wife check it out, go to dinner, come back and see us tomorrow."

There used to be a mutual respect.

Sales people used to EARN your sale, by SELLING. Not by being arrogant and insulting and basically telling you "buy this from me right now or you're a piece of shit for wasting my time."

I haven't had a salesperson work to SELL me a car in years. They just stand there and act like you're inconveniencing them, and they're doing YOU a favor by being there. Then they expect you to hand over your money, and the more they can squeeze out of you by trying to intimidate you, the more it pads THEIR pockets.

Their jobs, quite simply, have evolved from SELLING you a PRODUCT and FACILITATING a mutually-beneficial transaction, to nothing more than being a conduit to extract as much money out of your wallet as possible and funneling it into theirs. Period.

It's a new world. Most customers are shitheads, no doubt about it. I don't blame dealerships one bit for not trusting the majority of them past the end of the parking lot, because the sad truth is that so many people today really ARE shitheads.

Most salespeople are a fantastic combination of ignorant and arrogant.

I know we have sales people, service people, folks who work or worked for dealerships, etc., around here, and this isn't aimed at anyone, so here are my general thoughts:

Salespeople: *KNOW YOUR PRODUCT.* If your dealer/employer/manufacturer does not offer to send you to product expertise training, ask for it. If they still won't, find a new job. Treat EVERY customer with RESPECT and treat them EQUALLY until THEY give you a reason not to. Like Tcoat, I too dress very casually most of the time. When I walked onto a BMW lot some years back and nobody would even acknowledge my presence, probably because I was wearing cargo shorts, a Harley t-shirt, and tennis shoes, I just walked right back across to where my car was parked and left. I was fully prepared to buy a car that day, they lost my business.

Dealers: I have yet to meet any who aren't crooks. Period. Even the "family owned" and "no sleazy tricks here!" ones that advertise on TV with the 3rd-generation daughter as the spokesperson... at the end of the day, it's all the same. That being said, the megalo-conglomerate-ubercorporate places (Penske, Autonation, etc.) are really the Walmarts of car buying. Sometimes you can score a deal because of their volume, but don't expect decent service.

Customers: You have a responsibility, too. Be knowledgeable, but be respectful. It is not the sales person's job to kiss your ass. Be polite, understand that the person is trying to do their job as they are instructed to do it. Sometimes the policies of a dealership are shoved down the front line's throats. Sometimes the sales person is just an ass.

Whether they'll admit to it or not, many dealers will spend time and money on training their salespeople on psychological warfare rather than making them trusted sources of product expertise. The words that salespeople use, the ways they use them, the demeanor they exhibit, are often all tactics used to intimidate people and coerce them into agreeing to things they normally wouldn't.

"Pure pricing", or any version of something like that is BS, I don't care who wants to argue with me about it. It's another in a long list of fleecing tactics under the guise of doing you, the customer, some kind of favor. If you want "pure pricing" to ever work, then the entire auto industry would have to be revamped from the very foundations. Saturn tried it years ago, too.

Car buying has turned into a hostile and adversarial battle of wills. I will never tolerate a rude, disrespectful, or arrogant sales person. I will (and have) walk away from someone who has the wrong attitude and go talk to someone else, or I'll just go to another dealer. There are plenty who would be happy to take my money. They need me a lot more than I need them. It is their job to EARN MY BUSINESS, and it is my job to not be a complete d**k.

I had a Toyota salesguy tell me that the V6 Tacoma was 400HP. He also told me the FR-S was faster than the BRZ. He also told me I could get turbo as an option on the FR-S but not on a BRZ which is why I should trade my crappy BRZ and buy an FR-S. Then he told me that there was no such thing as the RS 1.0. I did not buy a Tacoma, or anything else, from him, needless to say.

The entire industry sucks.

[Turbo95eg6]

Originally Posted by Tan

I guess he didn't want to sell a car that day.

When I went to check out the car, the sales guy let me do things that I can't even mention on this thread. Filthy, filthy things

Did he let you fondle with her manifolds?

[PhantomX]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

You misunderstand my experience.

The dealerships I dealt with used Pure Pricing as a way to force markups they applied to vehicles using every lie in the book "Oh that's a factory installed navigation unit" or "This is installed at port, we have zero control over this it's Toyota's decision" "Every car we sell gets a clear bra and floor mats, yes that is $1,500 over MSRP, it's the only way we can sell them" "We have Pure Pricing, do you know what that means? No haggling, the price advertised is the price you pay!"

As you are so familiar with Pure Pricing I don't have to describe how it falls within it's wording and it pisses me off.

Oh, gotcha. Other than the last quote, that's just plain BS. I would advise finding a way to contact Scion directly and informing them of the dealership's activities. I'm pretty upfront with the customers of how we do things and why we do it that way.

[Tectoniic]

When i was originally looking at a used FR-S i showed up to the one dealership in basketball shorts and a t-shirt for a scheduled test drive. Obviously that wasn't good enough for them. The salesperson acted like it was a chore to be helping me and wouldn't even give me straight numbers even though I told them I was ready to put 5,000 down that day as a down payment....

Ended up going to a dealership where I was treated with respect, simple as that and ended up going with a new car because all the used ones i drove had not been taken care of.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by PhantomX

Oh, gotcha. Other than the last quote, that's just plain BS. I would advise finding a way to contact Scion directly and informing them of the dealership's activities. I'm pretty upfront with the customers of how we do things and why we do it that way.

Done and done, typically most complaints to corporate get you pushed back to a "customer service rep" at the nearest dealership who, depending on how the dealership is run, is in my experience still second to the sales staff and the conversation repeats as before. This is not a Toyota exclusive experience for me regarding filing complaints, the only unique thing was Pure Pricing eliminated any chance I had at getting a deal.

I was fine paying MSRP, I was shown repeatedly that dealerships do not want my "fair" (admittedly in my own eyes) business.

This is clearly reflected in this thread.

The day dealerships die as we know it will be a good day, there is no reason I couldn't have ordered the car online, signed the paperwork and had the car show up 2 months before I found someone willing to get me the car I wanted under the current model. Probably would have saved money on the deal, not to mention the dozens of hours wasted (don't know what your time is worth but 40 hours for me would have been at least 3 car payments according to my employer) including the final 4 at the dealership to walk out with the keys and the hour wasted when they tried to yo-yo finance me.

[PhantomX]

Originally Posted by keithr

It's funny... I see a lot of posts about clueless salespeople, horrible and rude attitudes, and it being the buyer's responsibility to know everything about the car before they go look at it....

It didn't used to be like that.

Salespeople used to be sent to product training by the dealers and/or manufacturers. Their role was not only to facilitate a sale, but to be a PRODUCT EXPERT. They answered questions, told you things (true things, not bullshit lies) that you didn't know, tidbits, feedback from other customers, etc. If you asked "How many horsepower does the engine make?" they would give you the correct answer.

Salespeople used to be courteous and friendly. Granted, years of abuse by the declining state of the general public has certainly taken its toll on the demeanor of the majority of customer-facing roles, however, that's a cop out excuse.

I remember test drives that used to be overnight. I'm not old enough for it to have been my purchase, but I distinctly remember my father taking cars home overnight. They'd say "take it home, let the wife check it out, go to dinner, come back and see us tomorrow."

There used to be a mutual respect.

Sales people used to EARN your sale, by SELLING. Not by being arrogant and insulting and basically telling you "buy this from me right now or you're a piece of shit for wasting my time."

I haven't had a salesperson work to SELL me a car in years. They just stand there and act like you're inconveniencing them, and they're doing YOU a favor by being there. Then they expect you to hand over your money, and the more they can squeeze out of you by trying to intimidate you, the more it pads THEIR pockets.

Their jobs, quite simply, have evolved from SELLING you a PRODUCT and FACILITATING a mutually-beneficial transaction, to nothing more than being a conduit to extract as much money out of your wallet as possible and funneling it into theirs. Period.

It's a new world. Most customers are shitheads, no doubt about it. I don't blame dealerships one bit for not trusting the majority of them past the end of the parking lot, because the sad truth is that so many people today really ARE shitheads.

Most salespeople are a fantastic combination of ignorant and arrogant.

I know we have sales people, service people, folks who work or worked for dealerships, etc., around here, and this isn't aimed at anyone, so here are my general thoughts:

Salespeople: *KNOW YOUR PRODUCT.* If your dealer/employer/manufacturer does not offer to send you to product expertise training, ask for it. If they still won't, find a new job. Treat EVERY customer with RESPECT and treat them EQUALLY until THEY give you a reason not to. Like Tcoat, I too dress very casually most of the time. When I walked onto a BMW lot some years back and nobody would even acknowledge my presence, probably because I was wearing cargo shorts, a Harley t-shirt, and tennis shoes, I just walked right back across to where my car was parked and left. I was fully prepared to buy a car that day, they lost my business.

Dealers: I have yet to meet any who aren't crooks. Period. Even the "family owned" and "no sleazy tricks here!" ones that advertise on TV with the 3rd-generation daughter as the spokesperson... at the end of the day, it's all the same. That being said, the megalo-conglomerate-ubercorporate places (Penske, Autonation, etc.) are really the Walmarts of car buying. Sometimes you can score a deal because of their volume, but don't expect decent service.

Customers: You have a responsibility, too. Be knowledgeable, but be respectful. It is not the sales person's job to kiss your ass. Be polite, understand that the person is trying to do their job as they are instructed to do it. Sometimes the policies of a dealership are shoved down the front line's throats. Sometimes the sales person is just an ass.

Whether they'll admit to it or not, many dealers will spend time and money on training their salespeople on psychological warfare rather than making them trusted sources of product expertise. The words that salespeople use, the ways they use them, the demeanor they exhibit, are often all tactics used to intimidate people and coerce them into agreeing to things they normally wouldn't.

"Pure pricing", or any version of something like that is BS, I don't care who wants to argue with me about it. It's another in a long list of fleecing tactics under the guise of doing you, the customer, some kind of favor. If you want "pure pricing" to ever work, then the entire auto industry would have to be revamped from the very foundations. Saturn tried it years ago, too.

Car buying has turned into a hostile and adversarial battle of wills. I will never tolerate a rude, disrespectful, or arrogant sales person. I will (and have) walk away from someone who has the wrong attitude and go talk to someone else, or I'll just go to another dealer. There are plenty who would be happy to take my money. They need me a lot more than I need them. It is their job to EARN MY BUSINESS, and it is my job to not be a complete d**k.

I had a Toyota salesguy tell me that the V6 Tacoma was 400HP. He also told me the FR-S was faster than the BRZ. He also told me I could get turbo as an option on the FR-S but not on a BRZ which is why I should trade my crappy BRZ and buy an FR-S. Then he told me that there was no such thing as the RS 1.0. I did not buy a Tacoma, or anything else, from him, needless to say.

The entire industry sucks.

Originally Posted by Tectoniic

When i was originally looking at a used FR-S i showed up to the one dealership in basketball shorts and a t-shirt for a scheduled test drive. Obviously that wasn't good enough for them. The salesperson acted like it was a chore to be helping me and wouldn't even give me straight numbers even though I told them I was ready to put 5,000 down that day as a down payment....

Ended up going to a dealership where I was treated with respect, simple as that and ended up going with a new car because all the used ones i drove had not been taken care of.

I think you both hit it right in the nail. As a sales consultant, my job isn't to order take. It's to get you excited about the car while being honest and courteous. If I don't know the answer to a question, I'll flat out say I don't know and will try to find out. How a person looks has nothing to do with their buying power, let alone how serious of a buyer they are. (Though I do wish some people would actually wash themselves, wear deodorant or something...) I was taught this and this actually holds true; You can have the cheapest/best priced vehicle in the world and you can be the most knowledgable, but if you treat your customers poorly, they're not buying from you. After all, why would they buy from someone they don't like or trust? Why would they want that person to succeed, let alone profit from them? It's almost like rewarding bad behavior.

On the flip side, sales people are people too. Going to dealerships (or any sales business) and looking at sales people like they're nothing but scum looking to steal your money is a bad way to go. Most of them are just like those of you that go to work to make a living to make ends meet. In fact, the new sales people don't enter the business thinking they're the best thing since sliced bread. They're unsure of whether or not they fit in that line of work because they understand that sales people are perceived poorly. Even I started out that way. They don't enjoy being demeaned, insulted, etc, and I've seen people quit over that. Again, they're human, not soulless machines that can take whatever abuse people throw at them. Showing them respect goes a long way. This actually goes to any industry.

So, the bottom line is respect and understanding is a big thing for both sides.

[Tcoat]

Have hope guys! There are indeed still good dealers and salespeople out there! Other than my initial contact I have nothing but praise for both my dealer and salesperson. Judging by the attached links I am not alone in that category either.


http://www.dealerrater.ca/sales/Nico...review-177586/


http://www.dealerrater.ca/dealer/Toy...-review-40027/

[PhantomX]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Done and done, typically most complaints to corporate get you pushed back to a "customer service rep" at the nearest dealership who, depending on how the dealership is run, is in my experience still second to the sales staff and the conversation repeats as before. This is not a Toyota exclusive experience for me regarding filing complaints, the only unique thing was Pure Pricing eliminated any chance I had at getting a deal.

I was fine paying MSRP, I was shown repeatedly that dealerships do not want my "fair" (admittedly in my own eyes) business.

This is clearly reflected in this thread.

The day dealerships die as we know it will be a good day, there is no reason I couldn't have ordered the car online, signed the paperwork and had the car show up 2 months before I found someone willing to get me the car I wanted under the current model. Probably would have saved money on the deal, not to mention the dozens of hours wasted (don't know what your time is worth but 40 hours for me would have been at least 3 car payments according to my employer) including the final 4 at the dealership to walk out with the keys and the hour wasted when they tried to yo-yo finance me.

The day dealerships die will be the day I'm out of a job.

I can't really say much for Pure Pricing since it is what it is. It can be a great thing since there's no haggling step, but it also can be a turn off to customers who want some kind of discount, not that there is much margin.

But yeah, there are federal and state laws that require manufacturers to use dealerships to sell their vehicles. Besides, it wouldn't do the customers justice if they just order the vehicle online without actually getting to sit in the driver's seat and test driving it. It is the second (a house being first) largest investment a person will ever make, after all. But, in today's day and age, most people do like to inquire and get quotes from home. So, at my dealership, I'm also responsible for any internet "leads" we receive and following up with them. We give them a courtesy call to narrow down exactly what they're looking for, and invite them to take one for a test drive.

And I completely understand about the long wait. There's actually a process we follow to keep the whole experience quick and easy. Unfortunately, I can't control the speed of the flow when it comes to signing final paperwork in financing. That's where the bottleneck occurs. The busier we get, the longer it takes to get my customers to financing, which, trust me, has been a lot of hair pulling for me. We hate it just as much as the customers, and often joke that if we could do the finance portion too, we'd all have our customers in their cars and on their way already.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by PhantomX

The day dealerships die will be the day I'm out of a job.

Look up Tesla.

I for one will not mourn the loss of a middle man.

[PhantomX]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Look up Tesla.

I for one will not mourn the loss of a middle man.

Oh, I know about how Tesla sells their cars. At least let me have the chance to make through the ranks and into Scion before letting dealerships die.

[soulreapersteve]

Originally Posted by PhantomX

The day dealerships die will be the day I'm out of a job.

I can't really say much for Pure Pricing since it is what it is. It can be a great thing since there's no haggling step, but it also can be a turn off to customers who want some kind of discount, not that there is much margin.

But yeah, there are federal and state laws that require manufacturers to use dealerships to sell their vehicles. Besides, it wouldn't do the customers justice if they just order the vehicle online without actually getting to sit in the driver's seat and test driving it. It is the second (a house being first) largest investment a person will ever make, after all. But, in today's day and age, most people do like to inquire and get quotes from home. So, at my dealership, I'm also responsible for any internet "leads" we receive and following up with them. We give them a courtesy call to narrow down exactly what they're looking for, and invite them to take one for a test drive.

And I completely understand about the long wait. There's actually a process we follow to keep the whole experience quick and easy. Unfortunately, I can't control the speed of the flow when it comes to signing final paperwork in financing. That's where the bottleneck occurs. The busier we get, the longer it takes to get my customers to financing, which, trust me, has been a lot of hair pulling for me. We hate it just as much as the customers, and often joke that if we could do the finance portion too, we'd all have our customers in their cars and on their way already.

Wish you worked down here in Washington; you seem like a cool dude and more importantly, you drive an FRS! Double points!

I would buy from you in an instant, and give out recommendations when someone ask.

[3nl]

Originally Posted by PhantomX

You have to think of it this way; If you're selling a car and some random stranger who says they're interested in buying your car expects you to just hand them your key and to drive off with your car on their own for a while before deciding to buy it, would you really do it? You wouldn't ask for some kind of assurance, such as a valid driver's license, proof of insurance and collateral?

Ride along test drives reduces the risk of the vehicle being stolen or damaged. It also takes the responsibility off of the prospective buyer in an accident. Granted, there is a "borrowed car agreement" as we call it in my dealership. But, again, we photocopy a valid driver's license and insurance, as well as verify the customer's identity with a credit check. (After all, not only does a credit check allow us to do a fraud check, but also shows how serious of a buyer the customer is.) It also puts the responsibility of the vehicle's well being on the customer. The vehicles are meant to be sold, not handed out for joy rides. In the eyes of the customer, the value of a vehicle diminishes with the amount of miles put on them, and dealerships understand that.

I don't see how a dealership protecting themselves from loss through theft or preventable damages makes the dealership not business-worthy.

Yes - anyone who wanted to buy my car could gladly take it out and test drive it - that is what I have insurance for. If someone steals my car or crashes it - I'm covered. By "ride along" I wasn't talking about a salesman in the car, I was talking about the salesman driving the car - I have no problem with a salesman sitting in the passenger seat.

I also didn't say anything was wrong with requiring you to have a license and valid insurance - that is just common sense. Requiring a credit check or charging people before a test drive is asinine - nobody is getting my social security number or a $500 deposit just so I can find out if a car is a good fit for me. If you think I should dish out $2500 in deposits and spread my SSN around the state just to find the best $25,000 car for me, you don't deserve anyone's business. Any dealership that doesn't allow people to test drive a car (I don't care if a salesman comes along to make sure I'm not an idiot) doesn't deserve to sell cars - period. It doesn't matter if it is a $10,000 car or a $100,000 car, if I can't test drive it, you aren't getting my business. Anyone who buys a car without driving it is a fool.


If you own a dealership and you require a credit check to test drive your cars or a deposit, frankly you deserve to be out of business. There are plenty of better dealers who will gladly let you drive the car before you buy it. If your dealership isn't willing to pay the insurance and eat the cost of 50 miles, I'm not willing to give you my money. If you aren't willing to invest in your customers, they aren't going to invest in you.

That's business 101.

[keithr]

Originally Posted by PhantomX

...not that there is much margin.

If I had a nickel for every time I've heard that, I'd have a pretty high margin.

I have no doubt that the information you're given indicates certain lines of reasoning that the industry/manufacturers/dealers expect you to perpetuate. I don't fault you at all. But let's get a couple things clear:

* MSRP = Manufacturer's SUGGESTED *RETAIL* PRICE

They are SUGGESTING that a vehicle sold that that RETAIL price includes margin for everyone who gets their cut of the pie, and then some. Dealers who mark up beyond MSRP are fleecing.

* Dealers do not "pay" the invoice price for a car.

Selling me a car at or below invoice does not mean the dealer is losing money. That'd be a pretty silly way to run a business. I'm tired of hearing that one. All it means is that there's less pure profit padded in the transaction. The dealer still makes money on the car sale through numerous other channels on the back end.

* "Pure pricing" is a tactic that locks a set profit margin, it's not a favor to the customer.

Originally Posted by PhantomX

It is the second (a house being first) largest investment a person will ever make, after all.

While that may be true in many cases, it's not always the case. It might be a good general philosophy to follow, but it's a bit short sighted. Remember many people have different life situations... many people have far more invested in business ventures, real estate, stocks, etc., than they do in their personal vehicles. I've invested far more money in my education than I ever did on any one single car.

Originally Posted by PhantomX

Unfortunately, I can't control the speed of the flow when it comes to signing final paperwork in financing. That's where the bottleneck occurs.

That's also where the real fleecing often occurs. Upsells, warranties, service plans, etc. It's where the strongest persuader and psychological combatant sits behind a desk and commands you to comply. When I bought my BRZ, the finance guy was literally trying to tack nearly $10k worth of bullshit onto my deal, and he was getting visibly irritated that I wasn't biting on a penny of it. His anger may have worked on a lot of people, but when I told him that he could either calm down and complete the paperwork for the agreed-upon deal, no more, no less, or he could toss the pile of papers in the trash and I'd be on my way, he acted like I just kicked his puppy and peed in his gas tank simultaneously. The funny thing is, the only reason I was even financing was because I was able to negotiate a better value on the trade if I agreed to finance rather than pay cash + trade (go ahead, tell me about how financing kickbacks don't happen ), and at 0.9% it was almost free money. I came out ahead after letting the loan ride for 6 months and then paying it off vs. paying cash up front.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by keithr

If I had a nickel for every time I've heard that, I'd have a pretty high margin.

I have no doubt that the information you're given indicates certain lines of reasoning that the industry/manufacturers/dealers expect you to perpetuate. I don't fault you at all. But let's get a couple things clear:

* MSRP = Manufacturer's SUGGESTED *RETAIL* PRICE

They are SUGGESTING that a vehicle sold that that RETAIL price includes margin for everyone who gets their cut of the pie, and then some. Dealers who mark up beyond MSRP are fleecing.

* Dealers do not "pay" the invoice price for a car.

Selling me a car at or below invoice does not mean the dealer is losing money. That'd be a pretty silly way to run a business. I'm tired of hearing that one. All it means is that there's less pure profit padded in the transaction. The dealer still makes money on the car sale through numerous other channels on the back end.

* "Pure pricing" is a tactic that locks a set profit margin, it's not a favor to the customer.



While that may be true in many cases, it's not always the case. It might be a good general philosophy to follow, but it's a bit short sighted. Remember many people have different life situations... many people have far more invested in business ventures, real estate, stocks, etc., than they do in their personal vehicles. I've invested far more money in my education than I ever did on any one single car.



That's also where the real fleecing often occurs. Upsells, warranties, service plans, etc. It's where the strongest persuader and psychological combatant sits behind a desk and commands you to comply. When I bought my BRZ, the finance guy was literally trying to tack nearly $10k worth of bullshit onto my deal, and he was getting visibly irritated that I wasn't biting on a penny of it. His anger may have worked on a lot of people, but when I told him that he could either , he acted like I just kicked his puppy and peed in his gas tank simultaneously. The funny thing is, the only reason I was even financing was because I was able to negotiate a better value on the trade if I agreed to finance rather than pay cash + trade (go ahead, tell me about how financing kickbacks don't happen ), and at 0.9% it was almost free money. I came out ahead after letting the loan ride for 6 months and then paying it off vs. paying cash up front.

Wow Keith you really do have a hatred for dealers don't you. Not gonna dispute point by point because I can tell that your passion is strong on the subject so I would be pissing into the wind anyway but a couple of your points are way out of wack and although may pertain to you can not be generalized.


The dealers do not make some super secret, high dollar value, margin on these cars. They are nota bread an butter vehicle.


Pure pricing does not set any profit margin as it can be as high or low as the dealer wants it to be. It does not mean they have to charge any certain amount just that everyplace they show a price for each individual car must be the same amount. They could charge $10K for white and $50K for red if they wanted to.


If you didn't want the extras that is great but maybe he was getting "visibly irritated" by your reaction to his offers not by the fact he wasn't "getting you to bite". Like I have said I would last about 5 minutes in the job with some customers that have an obvious chip on their shoulder. If I had been on the other side of the desk when you said "calm down and complete the paperwork for the agreed-upon deal, no more, no less, or he could toss the pile of papers in the trash and I'd be on my way" the papers would be in the trash in a second and I would be inviting you to meet in the parking lot to discuss your attitude at length.


This is exactly the sort of attitude that these guys deal with day in and day out and then people wonder why they can be rude sometimes. They are just trying to make a decent living like anybody else but it seems when people buy cars they always feel they are being robbed somehow.