Tesla "Full Self Driving" not capable of autonomous driving

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by soundman98

hard to disagree. one of the points i was expecting he was going to make but didn't was how old the model s and y are getting. i mean, they've been making the model s in mostly the same form with minimal updates since 2014.

It is behind a paywall, so I didn’t read it, but I can’t imagine any manufacturer is even close to Tesla, especially suggesting they are leaving Tesla in the dust. Tesla doesn’t expect to be the top EV manufacturer by any means, so even if it was the case that Ford was innovating faster, making a better car, making it cheaper with better value, building their own gigafactories that produced more in a smaller footprint, etc, it wouldn’t mean anything to Tesla. Everyone isn’t going to buy a Ford just like not everyone is going to buy a Tesla, so if anyone can summarize the points of the opinion article that I’m missing, that would be great.

As far as the model design, the changes to premium cars is typically smaller and incremental compared to economy brands, which helps them to keep their resale value and appeal. While it would be nice to see a greater refresh, it probably isn’t affecting demand or slowing production much on such low volume models. Tesla did do a significant interior refresh on the Model S recently, but the S/X sold only 66k units globally, yet Tesla sold 1.3 million vehicles overall, so most people are buying the Model 3 and Y. I’m sure they are going to continue focusing on those models and do slight refreshes. They sold 240k Model 3s and 250k Model Ys in 2022 in the US, so for now, whatever they are doing is good enough.

[Dadhawk]

Tesla did drop the price again on the S and the X, so that likely means they are seeing some drop of sales (or they produced some additional efficiency on the line, could be either I suppose.

https://electrek.co/2023/03/06/tesla...el-s-x-prices/

[Sasquachulator]

There isnt really a whole lot Tesla can do with their formula to make things different.

The cars are blobs with a headlight and are of various sizes.....
The interior is literally just an iPad smack dab in the middle of the shelf.

I mean...that doesn't really lead to much "improvements" or changes if you're going for the minimalist ideology.

similar to the iphone which has really only had 2 designs in its lifetime.
The single button look has been around forever.... and functionality since the iphone came out....(button > capacitive > fingerprint sensor) The only real changes to the actual phone had been size.

Then there's the notch design which has been around since the iphone X.
Again its the same design now and its only been used in phones of various sizes.
The UI itself is largely the same now as when it first came out.

Ive read since the avent of EV's that the more simplified architecture will allow designs to be more creative and daring with thier designs....

I am seeing NOTHING of the sort (not helped by the general trend of everything being a CUV/SUV)

[PulsarBeeerz]

Why is a Model 3 included in luxury car sales? I don’t quite understand that one.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

Why is a Model 3 included in luxury car sales? I don’t quite understand that one.

We've had long conversations on that one on here in other threads (and on other car sites). It boils down to price, fancy technodudads and the press deciding that it is.

Personally I don't believe it is, but it's a "religion and politics" type thing.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Tesla did drop the price again on the S and the X, so that likely means they are seeing some drop of sales (or they produced some additional efficiency on the line, could be either I suppose.

https://electrek.co/2023/03/06/tesla...el-s-x-prices/

They could have dropped prices to incentivize people to buy now instead of later when people get tax returns or when government incentives kick in. It is a big, expensive car, so demand on my graph looks fairly flat because there are only so many wealthy buyers in that market. Musk said in the last investor presentation that small changes in price resulted in huge swings in buyers for the Model 3/Y, which suggested the demand is there, but people just need to be able to afford the car. The five year cost of ownership is apparently less than a Corolla, so that is probably one reason why the Model 3 and Y are selling in big numbers. Most would probably buy a Model 3 over a Corolla for the same price.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

Why is a Model 3 included in luxury car sales? I don’t quite understand that one.

It is included in premium sales because like Dadhawk said price, performance, technology, etc. There is a lot of stuff under the skin and behind the scenes that make it similar to other premium cars and less similarly to economy brands. Ask yourself what a BMW has that is different than a Camry, and then ask yourself which one the Model 3 is closer to in comfort, performance, tech, NVH, options, power trims, etc.

The Ford Fiesta and the Ford GT are all fords, but Ford is an economy brand. Toyota has a Corolla and premium Supra. Premium brands sometimes make cheaper cars in their range, and they overlap with economy brands that are fully loaded versions, but in general, premium brands always make a step higher in quality. I’m sure Tesla could make an economy subcompact hatch without the glass giant roof, no sound deadening, only one engine option, smaller battery, no FSD/Autopilot, no double paned windows, no cameras/radar/sentry mode, plastic panel door cards especially in the rear like most economy cars, halogen headlights, basic sound system, fake wood instead of real wood inlays, steel wheels, basic tires, etc. but I don’t see them doing that at all. Maybe.

[PulsarBeeerz]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

The five year cost of ownership is apparently less than a Corolla, so that is probably one reason why the Model 3 and Y are selling in big numbers. Most would probably buy a Model 3 over a Corolla for the same price.

The 5 year cost of ownership for a 2wd Model 3 is $150 less over 5 years. $150 over 5 years. Not the greatest selling point so lets dig deeper. The omitted true cost to own over those 5 year where the price of the car is factored in. The Rolla at $32000 vs the 2wd Model 3 at $45300. $13,300 is the difference in money over 5 years. Would people prefer a Model 3 at Corolla pricing? Well if I'm gonna drive to work in a bland penalty box, I at least rather not bother with oil changes. I guess? I rather have a 23' Prius tbh, the redesign was great.

Corolla
https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/corol...tyle=401921005
Model 3
https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-...tyle=401919101

[PulsarBeeerz]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

It is included in premium sales because like Dadhawk said price, performance, technology, etc. There is a lot of stuff under the skin and behind the scenes that make it similar to other premium cars and less similarly to economy brands. Ask yourself what a BMW has that is different than a Camry, and then ask yourself which one the Model 3 is closer to in comfort, performance, tech, NVH, options, power trims, etc.

The Ford Fiesta and the Ford GT are all fords, but Ford is an economy brand. Toyota has a Corolla and premium Supra. Premium brands sometimes make cheaper cars in their range, and they overlap with economy brands that are fully loaded versions, but in general, premium brands always make a step higher in quality. I’m sure Tesla could make an economy subcompact hatch without the glass giant roof, no sound deadening, only one engine option, smaller battery, no FSD/Autopilot, no double paned windows, no cameras/radar/sentry mode, plastic panel door cards especially in the rear like most economy cars, halogen headlights, basic sound system, fake wood instead of real wood inlays, steel wheels, basic tires, etc. but I don’t see them doing that at all. Maybe.

I rode in a Dual motor Model 3. Straight-line performance aside it's a 2003 Saturn Ion up in there. I even recognized the same shit steering wheel material. lol, This is a regular mid-sized car for $45-55k. The levels of refinement, choice of material, and design fit and finish are not that of a luxury vehicle. My co-worker's 21' Accord Sport 2.0T feels like stepping into a spaceship vs the model 3. The model 3 makes sense at $38000 all day, but it's not. Bland interior, bland exterior. Sit in a $45k Model 3 vs any equivalently priced Lexus and lie to yourself that the Tesla is the nicer vehicle. I came from a 2008 CRV and the Model 3 is the only modern car that was able to make me say, "Is this it?", the second I close the door.


Maybe I have been looking at it all wrong. It's like a Chrysler 300C SRT. Fast and "luxurious". What was the profit margin on a Model 3, something like 29%, yeah it's just over priced. $36000 into the car that starts at $45000. Meanwhile a Camry pull $1200 a unit. All the stuff you mentioned doesn't add much to the cost of manufacture as it turns out.. I'm sure there is a cost break down and production capacity analysis Tesla use to price vehicles. This was not worth it.

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

It is behind a paywall, so I didn’t read it, but I can’t imagine any manufacturer is even close to Tesla, especially suggesting they are leaving Tesla in the dust. Tesla doesn’t expect to be the top EV manufacturer]

You mean you’re not a subscriber. Tsk tsk Dyer does suggest that Ford is surpassing Tesla technologically, but he also dives into the company’s workplace policies- making the argument that Ford has (where possible) become more progressive of late, while Tesla, despite EMs public persona is pretty autocratic and still manages by fear.

Dyer’s claims-not mine. Though I do find them believable.

As to the fascia lift, there’s no way to make a Cayman front end look bad and nothing can make the front of a Merc sedan or a Tesla look good.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

The 5 year cost of ownership for a 2wd Model 3 is $150 less over 5 years. $150 over 5 years. Not the greatest selling point so lets dig deeper. The omitted true cost to own over those 5 year where the price of the car is factored in. The Rolla at $32000 vs the 2wd Model 3 at $45300. $13,300 is the difference in money over 5 years. Would people prefer a Model 3 at Corolla pricing? Well if I'm gonna drive to work in a bland penalty box, I at least rather not bother with oil changes. I guess? I rather have a 23' Prius tbh, the redesign was great.

Corolla
https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/corol...tyle=401921005
Model 3
https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-...tyle=401919101

I'm not sure where Edmunds is coming up with those depreciation numbers and repair numbers, but the purchase price is less than a Corolla based on tax credits, and then there is savings in maintenance, fuel, etc. on top of that. Obviously the tax credits make a big difference.

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/2023-te...a-some-places/

Regardless, the point was would the vast majority of people choose the Model 3 over a Corolla, if they were the same price? If they are both economy cars of the same class then 50% might pick one and 50% might pick the other. That was my argument. Same when comparing it to a two or three series BMW.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

I rode in a Dual motor Model 3. Straight-line performance aside it's a 2003 Saturn Ion up in there. I even recognized the same shit steering wheel material. lol, This is a regular mid-sized car for $45-55k. The levels of refinement, choice of material, and design fit and finish are not that of a luxury vehicle. My co-worker's 21' Accord Sport 2.0T feels like stepping into a spaceship vs the model 3. The model 3 makes sense at $38000 all day, but it's not. Bland interior, bland exterior. Sit in a $45k Model 3 vs any equivalently priced Lexus and lie to yourself that the Tesla is the nicer vehicle. I came from a 2008 CRV and the Model 3 is the only modern car that was able to make me say, "Is this it?", the second I close the door.

Maybe I have been looking at it all wrong. It's like a Chrysler 300C SRT. Fast and "luxurious". What was the profit margin on a Model 3, something like 29%, yeah it's just over priced. $36000 into the car that starts at $45000. Meanwhile a Camry pull $1200 a unit. All the stuff you mentioned doesn't add much to the cost of manufacture as it turns out.. I'm sure there is a cost break down and production capacity analysis Tesla use to price vehicles. This was not worth it.

The Model 3 RWD is $43k before state and federal tax savings or gas savings, so it is cheaper than a $38k car.

I never said the Model 3 was nicer than a Lexus. It doesn't have to be nicer to be premium. It is premium because it is more like a premium built car than economy cars. Economy brands have gotten better, but they are really good at pulling the wool over people's eyes. Tesla interiors aren't as busy, ornate or chunky as most cars, but especially premium cars, but there is already a range of interiors from busy Mercedes to cleaner Audi. Our Audi Q5 is great, as Audi is known for great interiors, but it isn't dramatically different.

EVs have higher profit margins for manufactures at POS, but legacy manufactures have more money in parts and maintenance over time.

There is a lot of Tech in the cars, and it isn't cheap. Whether that, or any features, add value to you is all your subjective opinion, but others have put value in these features to give the car a premium category. I'm not trying to persuade you to change your opinion. I'm trying to explain why the majority have this perspective about Tesla, including the motor journalist and industry players.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

You mean you’re not a subscriber. Tsk tsk Dyer does suggest that Ford is surpassing Tesla technologically, but he also dives into the company’s workplace policies- making the argument that Ford has (where possible) become more progressive of late, while Tesla, despite EMs public persona is pretty autocratic and still manages by fear.

Dyer’s claims-not mine. Though I do find them believable.

As to the fascia lift, there’s no way to make a Cayman front end look bad and nothing can make the front of a Merc sedan or a Tesla look good.

Oh really? Bold claims I would say. Tesla has some of the best engineers in the world. What has Ford done that has surpassed Tesla in technology?

I don't think Tesla has ever claimed to be progressive in the work space. Musk is pretty anti-union, workers have been fired for smoking pot, and he has been fairly ruthless, as a boss, but the company is run very differently than most companies, especially car companies. They make changes at the speed of a startup, and that is what Musk refers to different departments, as just a bunch of different startups. The communication and organizational structure is outlined really well in the last investor presentation. I highly doubt Ford is on the same level there, but yeah, they might have put in a few transgender bathrooms. Meanwhile, Musk is estranged from his transgender kid.

That is why we have so many different vehicles because design is very subjective, so I look at the interior of my car and Audi and like it, but I look at a Mercedes interior and think it is just way too much, and I don't like the exteriors either, nor most of BMW's new cars. To each their own. The Cybertruk is going to be someone's wet dream, and it will have a cult following, for sure. I could throw up on the design, but that is me.

[Sasquachulator]

Does the tax credit actually take the amount off the price of the car or is it just something you put into your taxes and you dont actually get that savings until your taxes are filed?

In which case you are still paying full up front cost until you get the rebate money back (which you may or may not even use to put towards your car.....)