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Old 01-02-2013, 09:31 AM   #43
celica73
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Originally Posted by Dezoris View Post
Actually what happened is I had 3 alignments. The one I posted done by myself. And it could not be anymore simple, and you don't need theoretical math to show what has been proven by actually doing what the poster asked: "Do you need to do an alignment after installing camber bolts?" YES

No matter how you want to play devils advocate, you should have an alignment.
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This is what I did which provides a clear picture:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25001

3 Alignments, OEM, OEM Crash Bolts, then SPC Bolts
1. OEM Alignment to check and correct any issues.
2. Self installed crash bolts, then alignment which again shows the effect of changing camber on toe.
3. Then install of SPC camber bolts, and then an alignment done by myself and friend. Where changing camber had a direct effect on toe. And when getting cross camber corrected, toe still needed to be adjusted via tie rods and then camber slightly adjusted again and back and forth until things were even. Including driver weight.
Do you trust the first two alignments? Based on your post, I wouldn't. If the numbers can't be trusted, then you have a straw man argument. An alignment is only as good as the tech doing the work (as you note in the alignment thread). It seems your last alignment is the only one worth a damn, so you started with a car way out of whack and made it better. Not scientific at all.


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It's about "variance" in alignment specs. Just because there is a large allowance or range, does not make having toe off from side to side or camber a good alignment. Those who have done any type of racing or performance oriented driving would never accept having -.12 toe on one side and 0 toe on the other.
I agree somewhat. That is very true in the rear, where different toe values side to side will make the car turn differently left vs right. That's bad (unless you are a real racer and are setting up for a particular track - you see real racers often have a side to side variance, even in road racing).

In front though? What *really* happens is the steering wheel self centers and you don't have a real side to side difference. 1/4 inch toe-in on one side and 1/4 in toe-out on the other is still zero total toe. The car will drive straight, turn the same left vs right, it will just have a steering wheel that isn't centered. Fix it with the tie rods or fix it by pulling the steering wheel and centering it. You won't see any difference between the two methods until you get to full steering lock, and you might not see it then.

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When it comes down to it, when you are changing camber it will almost always effect toe. And if you want a GOOD alignment you need to adjust toe.
Yes, changing camber does effect toe. And depending how you drive that might matter. A GOOD alignment is totally subjective. Half of my alignments in the past 15 years have been in the "red" zone on a Hunter alignment rack. What is good for street isn't always good for autocross/track. I'm pretty much always out of spec on camber, and often on toe as well. Bad alignment for street driving and tire wear, great alignment for turns.

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Your argument is exactly what I always hear from techs who do a ton of alignments, it's a lot more time and work to get an alignment dialed in evenly.
You need to find better techs. I can suggest some places in NC if you need help in this area.

As for the question in the original post, I still maintain that you can throw on some camber bolts, max out the neg. camber and call it a day. It will be fine for daily driving. I do agree, that at some point an alignment is in order, but the tires aren't going to wear excessively while you figure out what you actually want, and why.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:52 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by celica73 View Post
Do you trust the first two alignments? Based on your post, I wouldn't. If the numbers can't be trusted, then you have a straw man argument. An alignment is only as good as the tech doing the work (as you note in the alignment thread). It seems your last alignment is the only one worth a damn, so you started with a car way out of whack and made it better. Not scientific at all.



I agree somewhat. That is very true in the rear, where different toe values side to side will make the car turn differently left vs right. That's bad (unless you are a real racer and are setting up for a particular track - you see real racers often have a side to side variance, even in road racing).


As for the question in the original post, I still maintain that you can throw on some camber bolts, max out the neg. camber and call it a day. It will be fine for daily driving. I do agree, that at some point an alignment is in order, but the tires aren't going to wear excessively while you figure out what you actually want, and why.

I was not happy with the first two alignments however, I do not think the values were spoofed.

I do not question your experience, however you have not provided alignments before and after installing camber bolts for this car. I am.

Is this the be all end all? No but it clearly shows that a car that was within factory specs of alignment, WAS NOT after installing the bolts, both OEM and aftermarket.

After installing OEM crash bolts:

TOE
Front Left -0.25
Front Right 0.10


After Installing SPC Camber Bolts

TOE
Front Left -0.12
Front Right -0.23



Are these good alignment values, no. Unacceptable for an enthusiast as well as a dealership doing a to spec alignment. We can argue all day about changes in steering feel, low speed feel, high speed stability of alignments however this is all driver dependent. Again I am trying to answer the question of the poster with data not with guesstimates.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:55 PM   #45
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I think this thread has lost its way.

OP wants to install Camber bolts.
Camber bolts provide more camber.
You adjust camber and measure by getting an alignment.
Should OP get an alignment?

Yes, you absolutely *want* an alignment. If you are going to the effort of installing something, install it correctly so that the bolts do what they are supposed to do. Do you *need* an alignment? No, but I don't understand why you would install bolts if you were just going to slam the struts all the way in.

The toe change may be minor with camber change, but 1/16" toe in vs. 1/16" toe out can have a big effect on the way a performance car handles.

Camber bolts aside, "factory spec" for an alignment is usually pretty crappy for most cars. Any car out of the box would benefit from a performance alignment.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:58 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by mla163 View Post
I think this thread has lost its way.

OP wants to install Camber bolts.
Camber bolts provide more camber.
You adjust camber and measure by getting an alignment.
Should OP get an alignment?

Yes, you absolutely *want* an alignment. If you are going to the effort of installing something, install it correctly so that the bolts do what they are supposed to do. Do you *need* an alignment? No, but I don't understand why you would install bolts if you were just going to slam the struts all the way in.

The toe change may be minor with camber change, but 1/16" toe in vs. 1/16" toe out can have a big effect on the way a performance car handles.

Camber bolts aside, "factory spec" for an alignment is usually pretty crappy for most cars. Any car out of the box would benefit from a performance alignment.
The twist is that I'll be getting sticky tires soon, so I wasn't sure if I would need a second alignment shortly after getting my first alignment. However, it appears that new tires won't affect alignment specs.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:06 PM   #47
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Even if you're running full size bolts, there's enough wiggle room that the alignment won't be the same on both sides, or ideal unless you're REALLY lucky. Just because it's within "spec" doesn't mean it's the same, or good. I think stock front camber spec is 0* +/- 0.8*, that means you could have a net difference of 1.6* between the two sides and still be within spec.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:32 AM   #48
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Exactly right. The range of "within spec" is large and has tons of variance straight from the factory and that's the real problem. "Within spec" can be quite shitty, if you are lucky maybe not. But who knows until it is on an alignment t rack. I would recommend an alignment even without the bolts! If you are going to the trouble of putting them on do it right and get an alignment.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:25 AM   #49
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No, but I don't understand why you would install bolts if you were just going to slam the struts all the way in.
Because you want as much camber as you can get? I got -2.2 on both sides, I would like more still but can't get it with my current setup

Also, the camber bolts changed my toe exactly 0.00 degrees. YMMV.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:31 AM   #50
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Because you want as much camber as you can get? I got -2.2 on both sides, I would like more still but can't get it with my current setup

Also, the camber bolts changed my toe exactly 0.00 degrees.
I have the SPC camber bolts on order. I'm guessing those will give a little more camber than the OEM crash bolts; plus they're easier to adjust.

But yeah, realistically, you probably can't get anything more than -2.2 on the camber bolts and lowered springs. I'm guessing you'll need camber plates if you want to get -3.0 or more camber. @CSG Mike is currently running that setup.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:51 AM   #51
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I have the SPC camber bolts on order. I'm guessing those will give a little more camber than the OEM crash bolts; plus they're easier to adjust.

But yeah, realistically, you probably can't get anything more than -2.2 on the camber bolts and lowered springs. I'm guessing you'll need camber plates if you want to get -3.0 or more camber. @CSG Mike is currently running that setup.
I'm using whiteline top hats and the crash bolts to get to -2.2, I'd only be around -1.1 or so without the top hats

I'll be running threaded body coilovers soon with plates so I'll be going to -3.0 up front initially.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:56 AM   #52
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I'm using whiteline top hats and the crash bolts to get to -2.2, I'd only be around -1.1 or so without the top hats

I'll be running threaded body coilovers soon with plates so I'll be going to -3.0 up front initially.
Are most coilovers threaded with a bigger slot?
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:59 AM   #53
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Are most coilovers threaded with a bigger slot?
You mean at the strut to knuckle/upright mount? Many are. I'm not sure if the Eibachs are, but between the crash bolts (or other camber bolts) and the camber plates up top I'll have more than enough camber adjustment. I'll max out what I can at the bottom so I can make easy adjustments at the top during alignments, etc.
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Old 01-03-2013, 03:03 AM   #54
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You mean at the strut to knuckle/upright mount? Many are. I'm not sure if the Eibachs are, but between the crash bolts (or other camber bolts) and the camber plates up top I'll have more than enough camber adjustment. I'll max out what I can at the bottom so I can make easy adjustments at the top during alignments, etc.
Yeah. Now we just need to figure out how to easily adjust the rear camber without having to install those Whiteline bushings or a rear lower control arm.

Getting camber in the rear doesn't seem to be a problem as lowering the car will gain you a lot of negative camber in the rear; it's fine tuning/balancing both sides that seems to be the issue.
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Old 01-03-2013, 03:06 AM   #55
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Yeah. Now we just need to figure out how to easily adjust the rear camber without having to install those Whiteline bushings or a rear lower control arm.

Getting camber in the rear doesn't seem to be a problem as lowering the car will gain you a lot of negative camber in the rear; it's fine tuning/balancing both sides that seems to be the issue.
Pretty much
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:14 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Dave-ROR View Post
Because you want as much camber as you can get? I got -2.2 on both sides, I would like more still but can't get it with my current setup

Also, the camber bolts changed my toe exactly 0.00 degrees. YMMV.
That's unpossible!
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