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Mechanical Maintenance (Oil, Fluids, Break-In, Servicing) Everything related to the mechanical maintenance of the FR-S and BRZ


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Old 09-05-2012, 08:46 PM   #1
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2nd gear synchro FIX- MT owners read this thread

I have solved my 2nd gear cold synchro issue 110%
Basically, if I had the money I would treat all forum members to 3 quarts of this on my dime.

You would ALL offer to pay me back

and then buy me beers

yes plural why? :happy0180:

cause youre gonna buy 3 quarts of this

http://www.autohausaz.com/search/pro...er=83220309031

and then you too can be in aisin tranny NIRVANA, like me

read on to understand my method of oil choice, and really tho the proof is in the pudding.

This is BMW LL tranny fluid, its their factory lifetime fill, and its pretty high end stuff that goes into my M3

I have somewhat of a hobby with oils, and chemicals in general, my father is a chemist so maybe that helps you understand where I am coming from

changing fluids is easy, whats more interesting is the choice of fluids

page 51 of service manual lists MT gear oil as 75w-85 and diff lube as 75w-90

I found a few oils that are to spec:

the pennzoil syncromesh vs the pentosin MTF2 vs the redline MTL90 vs Castrol SMX-S

the correct kinematic viscosity of a 85 weight oil is somewhere between 7 and 14

SAE service level defines targets for a 75W gear oil to be= 4.1@ 100F and 7.0 based on that and the fact that folks using MT90 and folks using syncromesh by pennzoil are reporting better than MTL results

there is a rumor that the GM syncromesh IS pentosin, but I dunno

this led me to believe the MTL90 some guys on this forum may be my second choice so I did a little experiment that cost me $60

I dont put pennzoil in any of my cars

here is a list of their salient characteristics

penn synch * pentomtl 7580 * mtl90 7590 * smx-s

KV @100 * 9.08 * 7.7 * 15.6 * 11.9
KV @ 40 * 41.6 * 38.3 * 90 * 64.4
VI * 208 * 177 * 185 * 183

I dunno the weight of the syncromesh, and the smx is a 75w85
I had hoped better for the smx and the redline but they too are thick when cold

FAIL

SAE service level defines target KV for 75W gear oil to be= 4.1@ 100F and 7.0 based on that and the fact that folks using MT90 and folks using syncromesh by pennzoil are reporting better MTL results
see
http://www.finalube.com/reference_ma...Categories.htm
Pentosin is the lightest of oils, of the four above

I use their line up of oils in Porsche audi and BMW products in my garage

Its great to put something fresh in there, even better to know why it worked better, and less of a dice roll if you really know whats different about them.

I am pleased to report Second Gear Syncho shifts like butter when cold. Come drive my car if you have any doubts.

I'm also looking for data on BG syncromesh 75w85, also a gl3
seems folks have used that in ASIN trannys with much success, its cheaper. But you do get what you pay for.

sometimes, syncros dont like afluid thats too slippery, sometimes they do. I

the diy on most manual trannys and diff are the same:
locate drain and fill holes, usually a largeish hex or a 1/2 or 3/8 square drive
open fill first
then drain
reseal drain
refill till it oozes out of fill hole
seal it up
pat yerself on back
drive
drink a beer


I also considered http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=140&pcid=7
its thick but not as thick as the MT-90, this one is specifically to address the cold synchro symptoms
BUT its a bit thick ish, and performs alot like the MT-90, but it MAY be an improvement

then...
surfing the net, I found this:

APPARENTLY PONTIAC USES AISIN TRANNYS
Here's some more for you... (from GM Techlink)

Quote:
Using the incorrect type of transmission fluid in Aisin manual transmissions may affect the sealing ability of the seals. An incorrect type of sealer may not be compatible with the transmission fluid or may not have the correct characteristics for sealing the affected components.

TIP: Refer to SI documentation for correct sealers, adhesives, lubricants and fill quantity for each transmission you service.

Aisin manual transmissions require the use of p/n 89021806 - Fluid, m/trns 75W-90 GL-3, 1QT (89021807, 1L, in Canada). The use of the correct fluid is required to assure the desired shift characteristics and compatibility with adhesive sealers.

RTV is the only sealer that is compatible with this fluid. The use of anaerobic sealers on Aisin manual transmissions is not recommended.


SO...

I looked up 89021806 and found its a GM GL3 fluid, seeking its KV @40 and 100 degrees

I'm trying to find its specs, but no luck yet.

What I have found tho is that the pennzoils syncromesh is NOT the same stuff as the GM syncromesh
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1421809

the history that led me to this finding is here:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...light=pentosin

If anyone local wants to drive mine, g'head. Proof is in the pudding. Now thats what my syncrho now feels like, smooth like a ball bearing, in pudding.
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:55 PM   #2
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Oils are a long way from my expertise. Can you summarise in layman's terms?
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Old 09-05-2012, 09:23 PM   #3
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That was a little hard to follow... You decided on the Pentosin MTF-2 75w-80 because of it's kinematic viscosity and viscosity index are within spec of a 75w-85, but stays on the thinner end of the spectrum than the others you chose for comparison. Correct?

Its no surprise the cold shifting is better at low temps being so much thinner, but it's also thinner at high temps. This might be fine for a normal daily driver. I'm more concerned with how it handles extended high loads and heat buildup from something like track use.

Last edited by wheelhaus; 09-06-2012 at 01:09 AM. Reason: typos.
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Old 09-05-2012, 09:34 PM   #4
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My M3 tracks VERY well...
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Old 09-05-2012, 09:43 PM   #5
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Ok. So basically an oil that is within spec but thinner when cold will help cold shifting. Makes sense.

How does your recommended oil go in the Aisin g/box with fast and hard shifts? Ive used oils in the past that were great for cold or normal slowish shifts but would grind on quick shifts. Redline claim this is because they are too slippery for the synchro rings to do their job. Again this seems to make sense and switching to their MTL in my application fixed this and still retained the good cold and slow shift feel but all boxes are different.
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Old 09-05-2012, 11:11 PM   #6
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How is this stuff with yellow metals? Synchromesh eats brass which helps in the short term but may cause issues long term in transmissions with thin brass synchros.
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Old 09-05-2012, 11:14 PM   #7
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Seems like this is just a quick fix, only time will tell the tale
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:37 AM   #8
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Return email from Pennzoil:

Dear *Name-Omitted*,

The synchromesh fluid that Pennzoil-Quaker State makes meets the warranty and performance requirements of the GM 12345349 part number for your application. It is not the same fluid that is in the GM synchromesh fluid package, so you can make your purchase choice based on price if you choose.

If you have any other questions or comments, please contact us at 1-800-458-4998, M thru F, 8am to 5pm, CST.


It works brilliantly, has in all my cars. I have no cold-2nd-gear anything and wouldn't care if I did. I have little concern about transmission when it's cold, only when it's hot because I'm no dumbass and I don't drive my car hard when fluids are cold.
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:02 AM   #9
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Yes, It's yellow metal friendly,no sulphur, has some EP and FM that's got great hot wear and shear protection while having a little higher metal content than most jap stuff like idemitsu mtf which is also highly regarded and sold as Honda. This stuff surpasses gm penny oil and redline in each and every chemical property

Plus my experience with redline is its great if you chang you're tranny fluid every 5000miles. Otherwise there are packages that do offer better protection than redline

If their base stocks for motor oil are any indication of the rest of their line up, they won't find their products in in my manual tranny!

Subaru factory oil that came in out motors is also idemitsu. Good stuff.

I have some nice machinery and do not take chances. You can research for yourself, and choose to do what you want. Once I dropped the factory fill it was piss thin btw. It was dirty and smelled like cheap Dino mtf. I been working with cars long enough to not go putting a gl5 in, not about to ruin a 4800 getrag tranny. Trust me, I would not be throwing 20 bucks a quart into an aisin unless I had a clue...some times it's fun to exceed manufacturer specs, ymmv

Pennzoil is crap, sorry. I hear this and that, but unless you send your shit in for oil analysis going on what you read or hear is iffy.

Should you at a minimum dump your factory fill put it aside and refill with oil that's better? Rethink refilling with that factory fill again? Rethink running the factory fill? Or are you fine with it?

Then again I'm the guy who dumps my factory motor oil early and refills with a cocktail of mos2 moly and Dino plus subie synth, I also picked up Toyota rocking filters...
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:13 AM   #10
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Yes, It's yellow metal friendly,no sulphur, has some EP and FM that's got great hot wear and shear protection while having a little higher metal content than most jap stuff like idemitsu mtf which is also highly regarded and sold as Honda. This stuff surpasses gm penny oil and redline in each and every chemical property

Plus my experience with redline is its great if you chang you're tranny fluid every 5000miles. Otherwise there are packages that do offer better protection than redline

If their base stocks for motor oil are any indication of the rest of their line up, they won't find their products in in my manual tranny!

Subaru factory oil that came in out motors is also idemitsu. Good stuff.

I have some nice machinery and do not take chances. You can research for yourself, and choose to do what you want. Once I dropped the factory fill it was piss thin btw. It was dirty and smelled like cheap Dino mtf. I been working with cars long enough to not go putting a gl5 in, not about to ruin a 4800 getrag tranny. Trust me, I would not be throwing 20 bucks a quart into an aisin unless I had a clue...some times it's fun to exceed manufacturer specs, ymmv

Pennzoil is crap, sorry. I hear this and that, but unless you send your shit in for oil analysis going on what you read or hear is iffy.

Should you at a minimum dump your factory fill put it aside and refill with oil that's better? Rethink refilling with that factory fill again? Rethink running the factory fill? Or are you fine with it?

Then again I'm the guy who dumps my factory motor oil early and refills with a cocktail of mos2 moly and Dino plus subie synth, I also picked up Toyo roki filters...

Pentosin Mtf2 is factory fill for Benz Audi vw bmw etc

What would make you think it's temporary? If you know how a synchronizer inbetween gears works, then it's either spinning to speed quickly enough or not. Viscosity can impact the rate of synchro spin up...significantly.

Last edited by gmookher; 09-06-2012 at 01:25 AM.
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:31 AM   #11
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Nobody is doubting your experience and technical knowledge, but it's hard to just go by someone's opinion when they say "I know what I'm doing, trust me" on the internet, especially when the numbers are notably different with some miracle product designed (or factory installed) for a different car.

Engine and tranny oils are a serious point of contention amongst nearly every car enthusiast, tuner, and manufacturer where everyone seems to know best, and everyone else is wrong, and everyone has reasons why. I know Aisin transmissions are no mystery, but due to all the the paranoia and elitism I'd also like to see some more supporting data and test results proving that this oil (or any other, for that matter) is superior.

And a side note, I thought Redline's base stocks were fine?
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:34 AM   #12
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I hear ya.

Drive mine. what a difference. Butter as opposed to a rifle bolt action.

I truly hated and dreaded second gear with cold fluid. Not anymore

If you think it will hurt to try it don't do it. Live with notchy second...
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:06 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmookher View Post
I hear ya.

Drive mine. what a difference. Butter as opposed to a rifle bolt action.

I truly hated and dreaded second gear with cold fluid. Not anymore

If you think it will hurt to try it don't do it. Live with notchy second...
This is also my biggest dislike about my BRZ. Second gear is a royal pain in the butt until the trans gets some heat into it. Was not looking forward to fall and winter since it would take even longer to get some heat into the trans.

I'm going to take your word and order some of this Pentosin MTF2. It does meet all the specs as stated by Subaru.
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:44 PM   #14
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How many quarts does the tranny take?
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