Brakes Upgrades

[weederr33]

What about the new brake kit that's coming out for the 2017 Performance Package?

[kch]

Originally Posted by weederr33

What about the new brake kit that's coming out for the 2017 Performance Package?

Remains to be seen. My personal opinion is that the stock brakes can take you pretty far already, and that once you outgrow them, the Brembos won't be enough of an improvement. But that's just speculation. Maybe I'm just trying to justify the money I spent on the AP kit.

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by kch

Remains to be seen. My personal opinion is that the stock brakes can take you pretty far already, and that once you outgrow them, the Brembos won't be enough of an improvement. But that's just speculation. Maybe I'm just trying to justify the money I spent on the AP kit.

I have upgraded pads, rotors, lines, and fluid... buuuuut I think it would be cool to get the brembos lol

[Lynxis]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

You are misconstruing my argument.
I maintain that tyres are the limiting factor in braking distance.

I will state my premise:
if you can engage ABS (or lock the brakes without ABS) with stock brakes you cannot utilise any more braking torque.

Please note that I'm not really disagreeing with you but as others say, there is more to the story than just tires at decreasing stopping distances. Unfortunately, it seems no one is willing/able to explain where the differences really lie so I will try. I don't know the real math so I'm just going to use made up numbers to get my point across. Please don't get hung up on the value of the number but rather just the relation because that's what's important here.

Let's say at 30mph, your tires are capable of stopping you at a rate of 1g before ABS engages with a brake torque value of 1000. Lets say OEM brakes are capable of a brake torque value of 1200 so you are able to hit peak stopping rate of 1g and engage ABS at this speed. You can go from 30 to 0 in say 50 ft.

Now at 60mph, there is additional aerodynamic downforce on the tires increasing stopping rate to say 1.2g. Beyond this, at faster speeds, you have to dissipate more kinetic energy so additional brake torque is required to hit even 1g stopping force so now the required brake torque value might be 1500 to reach the peak 1.2g stopping force. Now the OEM brakes aren't able to hit peak stopping power right away and you aren't slowing down as fast as your tires are capable of but as you slow down, you'll eventually reach peak stopping power and fall into ABS. You can go from 60-0 in about 125 ft. You have still engaged ABS but maybe not right away so this is why saying "if you hit ABS, you cannot stop any sooner" is wrong. In this case, increasing brake torque WILL shorten your stopping distances because now you can hit the maximum stopping force sooner and bring your stopping distance from 60-0 down to 100ft.

Again, please do not get hung up on the numbers I used, they were pulled out of my ass just to illustrate my point.

[Cartman]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

You are misconstruing my argument.
I maintain that tyres are the limiting factor in braking distance.

I will state my premise:
if you can engage ABS (or lock the brakes without ABS) with stock brakes you cannot utilise any more braking torque.

While this is true, Engaging the ABS isn't the fastest way to slow down, threshold braking is the fastest way to slow a car down, but it is not something that is can be easily achieved in a constant basis.

[dooms101]

I'll keep the Hawk ceramic pads for street use and I'm going to pick up some Carbotech X10's for the track. I've been looking at lots of BBKs around and I think the Essex sprint kits look like the best option. The wilwood kit is super affordable but apparently throws off the brake balance a lot unless you also do the rears which is overkill for me. I wont be going with a BBK for a while so I'll be able to save up for the Essex stuff.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

Please note that I'm not really disagreeing with you but as others say, there is more to the story than just tires at decreasing stopping distances.......

Thank you. I learnt something new today!
But.......two points I would like to make with regards to your explanation.
1/ Regardless of braking force one cannot brake any more once the wheels have locked. That is, tyres are still the limiting factor.
2/ I am suggesting most street cars, the FRS/86/BRZ included, don't make downforce as standard, it is usually lift. I will find Velox's thread later.

[churchx]

Originally Posted by dooms101

..I've been drooling over suspension parts but I probably wont get anything for a while since I don't really know what I need. The Eibach kits look like a good value but I don't think changing the ride characteristics before I learn how to actually drive is a good idea. I only know a little about camber, toe-in/out, caster etc so I am going to do more research over the next couple months. I see a lot of people upgrading the LCAs right off the bat, is that mostly for adjustability? I'm guessing the stock ones are not adjustable.

By stock on ours only toe is adjustable. Camber/"crash" bolts for front + LCAs for rear, is cheapest way to add adjustment, especially if rear LCA is from cheaper ones like SPC(same as whiteline/eibach) one i mentioned. With that you can get more negative camber needed for extra grip in turns/more even tire wear on track/slight rear-front grip bias adjustment. For me a bit of neg. camber of -2.5 front/-2 rear enabled going through turns faster, and slight toe-in at rear added self-stabilising in rear, enabling to open gas sooner on exit. Such or slightly less, eg. -2F/-1.5R camber still is pretty mild and "streetable", not affecting noticeably DD manners/tire wear.
But first it's worth to go to track few times with everything stock and check how car behaves now and what/if you want to change at all (for me after few trackdays there was wish to dial out some understeer) and feel if changes (preferably one at a time) worked right. Don't spend a dime (except maybe better pads & fluid) on anything before you feel how car behaves now and what/if you want to change at all. BTW, for cheap grip adjustment/enhancing can be got by simply deflating tires. I wouldn't want that as permanent solution though, as it increases tire wear, at some extent lessens turn-in sharpness, adds extra hassle to reinflate after trackday.
LOL, and back to topic - think of BBK only when you are through first set of pads . By few track days you may feel, what brake fade is, if you want to go for longer sessions, if you will go to track frequent enough to justify BBK purchase, which may help saving on wearables in long run.
Remember, there is one bit that will make you driving faster on track most - learning & seat time with upgrade of nut behind the wheel . HPDE instructions and more track days will cut lap times much more then any aftermarket upgrade to car you can buy. Nor uber coilovers, nor BBK, nor forced induction, nor carbon fiber lightened parts, nor uber aero elements. Just experience. Have a fun on track

[dooms101]

Originally Posted by churchx

By stock on ours only toe is adjustable. Camber/"crash" bolts for front + LCAs for rear, is cheapest way to add adjustment, especially if rear LCA is from cheaper ones like SPC(same as whiteline/eibach) one i mentioned. With that you can get more negative camber needed for extra grip in turns/more even tire wear on track/slight rear-front grip bias adjustment. For me a bit of neg. camber of -2.5 front/-2 rear enabled going through turns faster, and slight toe-in at rear added self-stabilising in rear, enabling to open gas sooner on exit. Such or slightly less, eg. -2F/-1.5R camber still is pretty mild and "streetable", not affecting noticeably DD manners/tire wear.
But first it's worth to go to track few times with everything stock and check how car behaves now and what/if you want to change at all (for me after few trackdays there was wish to dial out some understeer) and feel if changes (preferably one at a time) worked right. Don't spend a dime (except maybe better pads & fluid) on anything before you feel how car behaves now and what/if you want to change at all. BTW, for cheap grip adjustment/enhancing can be got by simply deflating tires. I wouldn't want that as permanent solution though, as it increases tire wear, at some extent lessens turn-in sharpness, adds extra hassle to reinflate after trackday.
LOL, and back to topic - think of BBK only when you are through first set of pads . By few track days you may feel, what brake fade is, if you want to go for longer sessions, if you will go to track frequent enough to justify BBK purchase, which may help saving on wearables in long run.
Remember, there is one bit that will make you driving faster on track most - learning & seat time with upgrade of nut behind the wheel . HPDE instructions and more track days will cut lap times much more then any aftermarket upgrade to car you can buy. Nor uber coilovers, nor BBK, nor forced induction, nor carbon fiber lightened parts, nor uber aero elements. Just experience. Have a fun on track

Thanks for all the info, I totally agree that I need to lay off the major upgrades and keep it mostly stock until I can actually push the car to its limits. I tend to get ahead of myself on these kind of projects haha...

I'll just add the LCAs and camber bolts to my wishlist. I'll set a goal of 4 or 5 track days before I do any more upgrades. I have a catback, CAI, and some aesthetic parts coming in the next few days, I just couldn't help myself...

[Lynxis]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Thank you. I learnt something new today!
But.......two points I would like to make with regards to your explanation.
1/ Regardless of braking force one cannot brake any more once the wheels have locked. That is, tyres are still the limiting factor.
2/ I am suggesting most street cars, the FRS/86/BRZ included, don't make downforce as standard, it is usually lift. I will find Velox's thread later.

Yes, I said I didn't disagree with you, tires are still the limiting factor if nothing else is but I'm explaining that it's unlikely to be the case.

I will concede that I may have been mistaken when referring to downforce in relation to our cars because I was thinking of F1 cars when I said that. That said, the other major factor still counts in that more torque is required to reach maximum stopping force at 60mph vs 30mph so upgrading brake systems can still help reduce stopping distances even if you are into ABS during a stop.

[Kodename47]

As said above, you can apply more braking force when the wheels are spinning faster before locking up than at slower speeds. This was the 1st thing I was taught on a driver training day at Millbrook and spent time just braking to a stop from various speeds, engaging ABS and then finding the limit of engagement.

@nikitopo if you're suggesting that BBKs are fitted to provide more brake torque, then you'd only be able to fit those as part of a whole system change. Fitting just fronts/rears without any other changes would really throw off the balance and then you'd also need to consider a master cylinder change too as, for more braking torque through the pistons, you'd need to be moving more fluid.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Kodename47

TC fully off is holding the left TCS button for 3/5 seconds. This should be seen as no real difference to the pedal dance when on the road. VSC sport is "half way" between off and fully on.

It's immediately noticeable under any sort of hard braking/panic brake situation.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

So when STI upgrades the brakes of the car and changes the ABS trigger engagement levels, they don't know what they are doing.

Actually, I don't think you understand what they're doing...

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

It's immediately noticeable under any sort of hard braking/panic brake situation.

The sort you should be trying to avoid on the road IMO that was what I was getting at. I understand why you would do the pedal dance on the track, but maybe TCS Off is as far as you should go on the road (for the slightly higher skill than average joe).