Official Formula 1 thread

[rice_classic]

Just about every Champion I can remember (have been watching since mid 1980's) has been able to win a championship in a non-dominant car or taken a non-competitive car and helped make it so (lauda, schumacher, senna, prost, hamilton@merc etc).

Vettel has yet to do this. He hasn't taken an uncompetitive car and wrung it by the scruff of the neck like Alonso has done with the Ferrari of the last 2 years. Vettel hasn't won a championship without Adrian Newey. Before he was at RBR, he wasn't with any team long enough to do anything other than drive what was given quickly and then "poof" he was somewhere else the next year. He's going to be a 4 time world champion, but the way I look at it, he's just part of a 4 time RBR championship.

It's like saying Scotty Pippen was a 3 time champion, and while this is true it is only true because he played on the same team in those years as Michael Jordan. Vettel is (will be) a 4 time champion only because he played on the same team as Adrian Newey.

As for diminishing fan base... In MS's dominant years the fans bitched about it but MS, unlike Vettel, still owned the crowd. The races still sold out, the fans still showed up in Ferrari Red all around the world and while everyone wanted the racing to be more exciting, MS still had a MASSIVE fan base. Schumacher wasn't booed when he was dominating because even though the racing was boring, the person that was winning was a person people still liked. I think the booing is representative of how few people are fans of Vettel, regardless of where he finishes the race.

[cfusionpm]

[GTB/ZR-1]

^^^ Sebspiracy... lol

[cfusionpm]

It's funny, everyone uses Mark as an example of Vettel's brilliance: "Well if he and Webber have the same car, why isn't Webber succeeding as much??"

Clearly it's not the same car....

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

It's funny, everyone uses Mark as an example of Vettel's brilliance: "Well if he and Webber have the same car, why isn't Webber succeeding as much??"

Clearly it's not the same car....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/for...stone-win.html

Edit: Just a relevant article for why Webber is cool and Vettel drools. Vettel is the better driver, if he wasn't RBR wouldn't waste energy pretending he is, they've handed both drivers the same car and Vettel came out on top via some metric fans will never know so he's been given the upper hand (not to mention getting a win with Toro Rosso before RBR had a win), as much as I hate the Vettel snoozefest (haven't watched the last two races) I respect him, if it was just Newey (or cheating) both cars would be 1+2 every race, or at least the races they're good at.

[cfusionpm]

Mark usually does pretty well when he doesn't have incomprehensibly bad luck. Not as good as Seb, who is more adaptable to the videogame-like driving characteristics the totally legal current defusers provide, but he's still quite a competent driver plagued by having to drive a car designed around someone else that also falls apart and catches fire.

[TheRipler]

[strat61caster]

Wait, is there any evidence of RBR traction control aside from that clip earlier in the year that most dismissed as wheel hop?

http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/1...99209R20131003

If they were cheating Webber would be placing second to dominate the field, I can't believe he would shun the system or they would keep him in the dark or shortchange him, if that was the case Ricciardo would have replaced him already.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

If they were cheating Webber would be placing second to dominate the field, I can't believe he would shun the system or they would keep him in the dark or shortchange him, if that was the case Ricciardo would have replaced him already.

What makes you believe that? Remember the nose cone debacle in 2011. RBR has a long tradition of "testing" untested parts on Webber's cars and using what works on Vettels.

The team absolutely approaches car development between the two cars very differently. One is the winner, the other is the test mule.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

What makes you believe that? Remember the nose cone debacle in 2011. RBR has a long tradition of "testing" untested parts on Webber's cars and using what works on Vettels.

The team absolutely approaches car development between the two cars very differently. One is the winner, the other is the test mule.

Because the constructors championship is king. It's been very clear that constructors get money, sponsorships and prestige by fielding the best TWO cars they can, why would a team drop Massa? Barrichello? Heidfeld? Fisichella? All drivers capable of winning and competing for championships as their careers ended, with a wealth of experience to develop the car and remain a 'number two' driver, but other drivers were faster, put up better numbers (not necessarily develop the car better as evidenced by the drop in performance as they left their teams: Williams, Renault/Lotus, Ferrari, Honda/Brawn/Mercedes, FI), you can point to specific factors to counter me but the point of this diatribe is that teams don't select number two drivers, they get the best two drivers possible, seems obvious doesn't it?

This goes hand in hand with my thought that if there is one thing that clearly gives Vettel a large advantage and clearly keeps passing tech inspection, why isn't it on both cars? No argument that they don't try different things on different cars to see what works and what doesn't, different drivers react differently (very apparent in other series like NASCAR). If there's something against the spirit of the rules that gives an advantage and passes tech inspection it would be on both cars and Webber would be capable of the same pace.

I'm not saying that there isn't something fishy, just that something so blatant and so performance altering would mean both RBR cars up front easily. Maybe they're fooling guys like me, handing Webber an inferior car to say "look see! Vettel is amazing! Webber isn't even in the same league with the 'same' car!" but why risk constructors points, money, and sponsorships just to secure the drivers championship?

I think fans forget that the engineering/team motivation is not the drivers championship, it's to build two competitive cars.

Edit: hell a couple posts ago I linked an article about the 2010 Silverstone race where Webber got the old wing and Vettel the newer wing and Webber dominated the race with Aussie fury. My favorite RBR moment, they fielded the best two cars they could and even with the "better" part on one car they were closely matched. I don't think it's traction control is my only point.

[cfusionpm]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Because the constructors championship is king. It's been very clear that constructors get money, sponsorships and prestige by fielding the best TWO cars they can, why would a team drop Massa? Barrichello? Heidfeld? Fisichella? All drivers capable of winning and competing for championships as their careers ended, with a wealth of experience to develop the car and remain a 'number two' driver, but other drivers were faster, put up better numbers (not necessarily develop the car better as evidenced by the drop in performance as they left their teams: Williams, Renault/Lotus, Ferrari, Honda/Brawn/Mercedes, FI), you can point to specific factors to counter me but the point of this diatribe is that teams don't select number two drivers, they get the best two drivers possible, seems obvious doesn't it?

This goes hand in hand with my thought that if there is one thing that clearly gives Vettel a large advantage and clearly keeps passing tech inspection, why isn't it on both cars? No argument that they don't try different things on different cars to see what works and what doesn't, different drivers react differently (very apparent in other series like NASCAR). If there's something against the spirit of the rules that gives an advantage and passes tech inspection it would be on both cars and Webber would be capable of the same pace.

I'm not saying that there isn't something fishy, just that something so blatant and so performance altering would mean both RBR cars up front easily. Maybe they're fooling guys like me, handing Webber an inferior car to say "look see! Vettel is amazing! Webber isn't even in the same league with the 'same' car!" but why risk constructors points, money, and sponsorships just to secure the drivers championship?

I think fans forget that the engineering/team motivation is not the drivers championship, it's to build two competitive cars.

Edit: hell a couple posts ago I linked an article about the 2010 Silverstone race where Webber got the old wing and Vettel the newer wing and Webber dominated the race with Aussie fury. My favorite RBR moment, they fielded the best two cars they could and even with the "better" part on one car they were closely matched. I don't think it's traction control is my only point.

RBR is ahead in the constructors championship by 118 points... Webber could have scored just 12 points through the entire season so far, and still maintain a constructors lead. By the end of the season, Vettel alone could easily take WCC if things stay the way they are.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

RBR is ahead in the constructors championship by 118 points... Webber could have scored just 12 points through the entire season so far, and still maintain a constructors lead. By the end of the season, Vettel alone could easily take WCC if things stay the way they are.

You're claiming Vettel can score 380+ points on his own? Alonso has 195, Massa 89, 25 points for a win, 500 possible points for one driver, 860 for a team, 660 if they only take 2nd and 3rd.

If a driver won every race he would lose the constructors to a team that placed 3rd and 4th every race, by 40 points.

It's certainly plausible that Webber is getting a genuinely inferior car, I just can't see any sane team hobbling their chances at a championship. To what end? Spite? Distraction? Cost cutting? If they got caught they have no chance at the championship anyway, why wouldn't they be dominating?

I guess my point is that Vettel seems to be that good, if they were cheating with something like traction control Webber would be fighting for podiums more consistently.

Edit: for reference check out the years of Schumacher and Senna/Prost and Williams domination, they had something up their sleeve and both cars were up front, bad luck or not Webber is not as much of a front runner as Vettel is.

[cfusionpm]

This season as it stands right now, it's entirely possible Vettel could take WCC by himself. Let's look at the numbers...

WDC
Vettel: 272
Webber: 130
Alonso: 195
Massa: 89

WCC
RBR: 402
Ferrari: 284

Vettel is averaging 19.4 points per race, Alonso 13.9 and Massa 6.4. This gives Vettel a likely final total of 369 (lower than combined Ferrari likely total of 386). B ut if Vettel takes a win at each of the last 5 races, he will beat Ferrari's likely points by 11 points with 397.

[strat61caster]

@cfusionpm I would take the bet that he does not win the constructors by himself. You're right it's entirely possible, it's also possible that Ferrari, Lotus or Mercedes could win constructors (admittedly much less likely). A lot can happen in five races, although F1 isn't known for being unpredictable (one of the things I hate about it, first 7 races of '12 was a dream come true).