MotorTrend's Head-2-Head MX-5 MiataRF vs. Toyota86

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Moue

10,000USD difference. Wow

Overblown, the Brembo BBS package is mostly for bling most who actually track/autox their cars will agree. If you care about performance you'll save $3.4k and not get that. More pads will be available for stock calipers I'd bet than OE style Brembos (one will have a lot more running around on the street with higher demand for high performance pads unless the Brembo's use a super common shape, not usually when they're sold as OE) and I'd be willing to gamble RPF1's are lighter as a second set of track wheels.

The 86 retails at a bit under $27k, MX-5 RF Club a bit under $33k, $6k difference is nothing to sneeze at, but nowhere near $10k if you actually care about performance value.

Same thing when everybody around here was also throwing out similar numbers for the soft-top MX-5 when they were like $33k for a fully loaded club, any excuse to try and make their purchase seem like it wasn't 'wrong' since the MX-5 is faster.

[Scrappydoo]

Originally Posted by Gforce

Exactly. And not just the Subie suffers. Nobody bothers to list the tire make and model in any comparison test, even though everyone knows it is the single most important factor in handling.

Handling? Roadholding possibly.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Scrappydoo

Handling? Roadholding possibly.

You've done it now.

[Lynxis]

Originally Posted by Da Brz

I had a lot of problems with this video and this was one of them. They showed the Hellcat sliding all over the track and made a point to say "this guy drives fast cars for a living and is really trying."

The whole time, I kept thinking, "If you really want to prove your point, let Randy drive and keep it apples to apples."

I see many people missed the point of that segment. It's not that the Hellcat is slower (it's not) but they are pointing out that if you want to track your car, you can buy a 70k Hellcat or a 30k twin with 10k in driving instruction and you'll be faster in the twin at nearly half the cost.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

... you'll be faster in the twin at nearly half the cost.

Unless the Hellcat owner is a better driver, right?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Unless the Hellcat owner is a better driver, right?

No, all hellcat owners are bad drivers.

[Lynxis]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Unless the Hellcat owner is a better driver, right?

Even that is debatable. There are all kinds of people of different skill levels and even advanced class drivers have lots of room to improve.

I was promoted from novice to intermediate last year and I remember the other intermediate guys were so much quicker than I was when I first entered the class but just this last weekend, I was promoted to advanced class. After a single session with the advanced drivers, I feel slow again.

There are people who were already in intermediate class when I joined and are still in it now that I have been promoted. The primary difference is that I've gotten more seat time and instruction than they have so I am improving faster than they are.

[Deep Six]

Originally Posted by WorldRallyB

And it blows my mind that they dont even mention it in the video, kind of upsetting really. How many times Randy P has stressed the importance of selecting a good tire, and how often they bring it up the tire in car reviews. Our tires, practically infamous by now, isnt even in the same performance category as the Miata's AND it still beat it on the track. I think that really speaks to the potential of the 86.

We all know this only to well. I wonder if anyone has ever replaced the original set of Primacy's with another aside from those who get tires replaced at the dealership? It's a shame that a better tire choice isn't offered by the factory as part of a performance package just to mitigate the perpetual second place finishes in all these comparison tests.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Deep Six

We all know this only to well. I wonder if anyone has ever replaced the original set of Primacy's with another aside from those who get tires replaced at the dealership? It's a shame that a better tire choice isn't offered by the factory as part of a performance package just to mitigate the perpetual second place finishes in all these comparison tests.

The 86 actually set a faster laptime than the RF regardless. But fair point - it would be interesting to see how the Twins would have done on the Miata's OEM Potenza S001's.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

The 86 actually set a faster laptime than the RF regardless. But fair point - it would be interesting to see how the Twins would have done on the Miata's OEM Potenza S001's.

Considering that the S001 is Bridgestone's OE summer tire and includes low rolling resistance in the description I'd be surprised if it was significantly faster than the S-04 that was only tested to be 0.2s faster than Primacy's on a BRZ around Streets of Willow a few years back.

"The Potenza S001 is Bridgestone's Max Performance Summer tire developed as Original Equipment for premium high-performance sports cars, coupes and sedans. The Potenza S001 is designed to combine low rolling resistance efficiency with maximum sports performance in dry and wet conditions. However, like all summer tires, they are not intended to be driven in near freezing temperatures, through snow or on ice."

The S04 has a more aggressive description, same treadwear rating, cheaper.

"The Potenza S-04 Pole Position is Bridgestone's Max Performance Summer tire developed for the drivers of ultra high performance sports cars, coupes and sedans who want to feel the rush of driving their vehicle. Potenza S-04 Pole Position tires are designed to perform in warm, wet and dry conditions. However like all summer tires, they are not intended to be driven in near freezing temperatures, through snow or on ice."

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Considering that the S001 is Bridgestone's OE summer tire and includes low rolling resistance in the description I'd be surprised if it was significantly faster than the S-04 that was only tested to be 0.2s faster than Primacy's on a BRZ around Streets of Willow a few years back.

"The Potenza S001 is Bridgestone's Max Performance Summer tire developed as Original Equipment for premium high-performance sports cars, coupes and sedans. The Potenza S001 is designed to combine low rolling resistance efficiency with maximum sports performance in dry and wet conditions. However, like all summer tires, they are not intended to be driven in near freezing temperatures, through snow or on ice."

The S04 has a more aggressive description, same treadwear rating, cheaper.

"The Potenza S-04 Pole Position is Bridgestone's Max Performance Summer tire developed for the drivers of ultra high performance sports cars, coupes and sedans who want to feel the rush of driving their vehicle. Potenza S-04 Pole Position tires are designed to perform in warm, wet and dry conditions. However like all summer tires, they are not intended to be driven in near freezing temperatures, through snow or on ice."

Yeah might make a significant difference, might not. There are a number of max performance summer tires that have been shown to significantly improve the Twins' laptimes (Pilot Supersport and Potenza RE050A, for example.) There are also MP tires like the Potenza S04PP you mentioned that only gave a minimal improvement.

Given that the Primacy HP's are way off the pace of the best max performance summer tires (not surprising given the Primacy's aren't even classified as "performance" tires to begin with), this question seems destined to be asked in every track test.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Given that the Primacy HP's are way off the pace of the best max performance summer tires (not surprising given the Primacy's aren't even classified as "performance" tires to begin with), this question seems destined to be asked in every track test.

Really? I'm only aware of the S04 test on Max Performance tires, what other tests are there? Must have missed a few.

I don't doubt that like the MPSS and Conti could be something like a second faster than the Primacy, but not much more than that.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Really? I'm only aware of the S04 test on Max Performance tires, what other tests are there? Must have missed a few.

I don't doubt that like the MPSS and Conti could be something like a second faster than the Primacy, but not much more than that.

Yeah there was a Consumer Reports test on the MPSS upgrade on an FR-S (set a then-CR record on one of their handling tests with the new tires) and there was a Sport Auto track test on the RE050A upgrade on a GT86 (dropped 2 seconds per lap on a 1:20 course). I don't have any experience with the RE050A's, but the MPSS is a decently quick street tire on track before it overheats/disintegrates.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Yeah there was a Consumer Reports test on the MPSS upgrade on an FR-S (set a then-CR record on one of their handling tests with the new tires) and there was a Sport Auto track test on the RE050A upgrade on a GT86 (dropped 2 seconds per lap on a 1:20 course). I don't have any experience with the RE050A's, but the MPSS is a decently quick street tire on track before it overheats/disintegrates.

No time associated with the CR article, and the only thing I can find on the Sport Auto test is the forum post here which has zero information like if the compared laps were even done on the same day so as far as I'm concerned bunk, sorry. Unless I'm missing something?

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt >1s can be gained with a tire swap to a streetable tire, my MPSS are about 2s slower than my RE71R's around a 40-50s autox course without changing anything else. And I'd bet the Primacy are at least half a second, maybe a full second slower than the MPSS.

The thing I doubt is "oh the Miata does so well because the Primacy's are shit *priustyrememes* and the Bridgestone were on the LFA so they must be great"