BRZ tS vs. GR86 Premium Ownership Comparison

[Veloist]

“Pure handling delight” was the phrase Subaru conceived to define the BRZ tS’s purpose. It may not have had the power and torque people wanted, but those who have driven it seem to share the same overall impression of how it truly highlighted the platform’s capability, especially as a limited-production factory-tuned edition. To me, it was a car with a special feeling…which is why 8 months after selling my 2018 tS for a GR Supra, I came back and bought a 2020 tS. However, after 12,000 miles in 10 months, I was faced with a strong resale market while in escrow for a house and had to do the smart thing.



Fast forward to today, after over 2,000 miles in a ‘22 GR86, I actually still crave the “pure handling delight” of the BRZ tS. Just a quick drive around a corner, and you’ll notice they are a night and day difference in terms of how they feel. To this day I still miss owning a BRZ tS. Whenever I find myself with nothing to do, I replay GoPro recordings of driving through the twisties and I can feel the tS’s steering and response through muscle memory. I’m not saying one is better than the other though. They’re both AMAZING to drive in their own unique way.

Daily Driving and Overall Feel

Generally speaking, the 2nd-Generation twin improved as a better daily driver due to obvious reasons like its torque/power jump as well as refinements to lessen noise, vibration, and harshness. However, there’s a notable difference in the overall feel and experience of the 2nd-Gen, regardless of being a tS or not. Most of the differences are from the tactile feedback coming from the cockpit of the car. Most significant is that the steering weight is lighter.

While it feels direct and communicative, it lost some feedback that the 1st-Gen was praised for, going from great steering feel to good steering feel. In addition to that, the engine response isn’t as sharp and there’s just the slightest bit of rev hang at higher RPMs. Despite that, I can’t ignore how great the extra torque and power feels. Ultimately, the 1st-Gen has a raw and gritty feel. The 2nd-Gen takes that feeling and adds a little more polish and refinement but with the expense of some driving feel.

Spirited/High-Performance Driving

Bringing in the BRZ tS into the picture adds another degree of differences, especially when driving the car spiritedly and/or on some backroads. The tS has even better steering feel and response—because of the stiffer front-end and virtually instantaneous turn-in. But the biggest differences lie in the handling characteristics of the two cars.



The tS was made to have significantly more grip with the Pilot Sport 4’s, and it accomplishes that well thanks to the suspension tweaks via STI, as well as the added downforce on the 2018 model. (However, owning both ’18 and ‘20 I felt no major difference in grip and in my confidence driving the car, especially when carrying speed through corners.) Despite having the same tires, the handling characteristics between the BRZ tS and GR86 sit on opposite ends of the spectrum.

The tS’s amazing steering feel combined with its road-hugging confidence make it the easier car to drive around bends and corners. You really do feel the “delightfulness” of the handing capability. It handles with incredible precision, giving the driver its impression as a point-and-shoot car and the mechanical grip gives it that sensation of being on rails. As the driver you feel as if you have a lot of control and almost no room for error. Consequently, its neutral balance makes it less engaging to drive compared to the GR86, which feels more like an on-its-toes kind of car rather than feeling like it’s on rails.



If you do try to drive the GR86 like the tS, you will notice the GR86’s eagerness to oversteer, which shouldn’t be too much of a surprise. You don’t even need to use too much throttle to make this happen, it seems to be the nature of the GR86’s suspension setup out of the box. In addition to this, the VSC is less intrusive than the 1st-Gen, even so than the BRZ tS.



Out of the two, the GR86 is the more engaging car to drive because as the driver you’re more involved with decision-making on how you’ll utilize the momentum you’re carrying. By the time you are figuring out how to manage the momentum, you’re right on the edge of having the rear slide out which brings you more thrill to an already-connected driving experience.

Final thoughts on BRZ tS vs GR86

For someone who deeply enjoys the car-driver connection and experience, both of these cars are a treat to drive. When I first drove my 2018 BRZ tS I definitely missed the looser rear end feeling in my 2016 BRZ Series.HyperBlue. The more I drove it, the more I realized how seriously set up the BRZ tS. It does not have the playfulness of a regular twin, but its precision and sharpness is an exemplary statement of the platform’s potential.



With that said, it was a breath of fresh air going back to something having exceptional driver engagement with playfulness and thrill. And despite differences and the loss of driving feel and feedback, at the end of the day the two cars still share the same platform. You will really feel this common denominator if you’ve driven both.

Which is why after owning both cars, I’m even more impressed and convinced how great these cars truly are. I’m very impressed with how well Toyota was able to tune the GR86 to become an engaging car with a lot of control and possibilities. And overall, the 2nd-Gen is such a worthy evolution of the 1st-Gen especially as it moves into the direction of being a more refined daily driver.

But the best part is, the 2nd-Gen does not make the 1st-Gen obsolete. Far from it actually. The 1st-Gen still feels special to drive, having more feel, feedback, and rawness. It’s going to be a car sought-after by many once cars like these are no longer made.

And finally, the BRZ tS. Sharp steering, response, and feel. That’s all I have to say. It’s still my favorite car I’ve ever owned. One day if prices don’t get too crazy, I will own another 2018 one. I would love to have both a BRZ tS and a GR86 in my garage. The GR86 I’d daily and, the BRZ tS would be my weekend car. I could see both going to the track with me, depending on the experience I want that day.

The legacy of the BRZ tS

There were 500 2018 BRZ tS’s and 300 2020 BRZ tS’s. A few have been totaled and salvaged. A lot of them are daily driven and racking up miles. The BRZ tS is a future collector’s car. Not many have driven it, and I believe it’s the secret pinnacle of the 1st-generation BRZ. We all know we are moving into a generation where analog cars are being phased out. I think the refinement’s to the 2nd-Gen makes the BRZ tS even more special and unique. It drives so differently than the 2nd-Gen too. The BRZ tS is going to be a perfect example of a manufacturer-tuned special edition collector’s car.



2nd-Generation BRZ tS?

Much like the 1st-Generation, the 2nd-Generation twins have loads of potential. Obviously aftermarket modifications can help you shape your ideal configuration. There are a handful of people who find value in buying manufacturer-tuned special editions though, and this number grows as time moves forward. The BRZ tS was an example of how well this could be done.

I would not be surprised to see performance packages available and even slightly more power late into the 2nd generation. I’d welcome special editions with more exclusive features than just body kits and unique colors.

With that said, I’m a bit lost as to how Subaru can make a better 2nd-generation BRZ tS than the 1st after the 2nd-Gen cars lost some charm present in the 1st-Gen already. The obvious equation standing in front of us is having more power and even more grip. But what can be done about the steering feel and feedback? Besides grip what can be done to make the car feel more special than previous tS’s and stock GR86’s/BRZ’s? Well, the only thing I could do would be to keep enjoying the GR86 and to not hold my breath so I could bask in the element of surprise.

——

Thanks for reading, I’ll be updating this once I have more high-performance driving seat time with the 2022 BRZ. Something noteworthy is that on the street, the 22 BRZ has a notably softer ride and slightly less steering feel than the GR86. Furthermore, on paper, the ‘22 BRZ drives less like the GR86 and sounds more like the tS. It will definitely be interesting to drive the 22’ BRZ while drawing comparisons from both GR86 and tS.

[CincyJohn]

I am sure I could do the research, but what would it have taken to duplicate all of the changes in the tS of the Gen 1 through aftermarket/STI parts? I mean it was mostly just suspension and brakes, right?

[Veloist]

Originally Posted by CincyJohn

I am sure I could do the research, but what would it have taken to duplicate all of the changes in the tS of the Gen 1 through aftermarket/STI parts? I mean it was mostly just suspension and brakes, right?

Chassis reinforcement play a big role in the "feel" of the BRZ tS. Most of the bracing went to the front end with front crossmember bracing and strut bracing. The stiff front end made the great steering feel of the 1st-gen even better, and it's a unique characteristic to the tS.

[dowroa]

Originally Posted by CincyJohn

I am sure I could do the research, but what would it have taken to duplicate all of the changes in the tS of the Gen 1 through aftermarket/STI parts? I mean it was mostly just suspension and brakes, right?

Getting a car like that from the factory with the individual care is really special as well... a holistic and end-to-end solution delivered that works. Sometimes, it is more about the small refinement and total package and feeling.

As long as you have all the tS part numbers and torque specs, you can surely order and install them to make what the tS was, sans it being an actual tS. However, I think once you look at the price of just the carbon wing, you will note you are better off finding a tS than attempting to re-build one (for now).

* https://www.japanparts.com/parts/detail/?id=45056

For the end solution as a specific deliverable, the tS like the S209, I would think it is more about all the combined details than just a few major changes.

For those still young enough with the energy.. it is possible to recreate it in the aggregate

[CincyJohn]

Originally Posted by dowroa

Getting a car like that from the factory with the individual care is really special as well... a holistic and end-to-end solution delivered that works. Sometimes, it is more about the small refinement and total package and feeling.

As long as you have all the tS part numbers and torque specs, you can surely order and install them to make what the tS was, sans it being an actual tS. However, I think once you look at the price of just the carbon wing, you will note you are better off finding a tS than attempting to re-build one (for now).

* https://www.japanparts.com/parts/detail/?id=45056

For the end solution as a specific deliverable, the tS like the S209, I would think it is more about all the combined details than just a few major changes.

For those still young enough with the energy.. it is possible to recreate it in the aggregate

Well, I understand the desirability, and thus resale value, of having a factory built tS vs. one composed of aftermarket parts. As for the carbon wing, if I was after the full feel of the tS experience that Veloist seems to want wax so poetic about, I would probably leave it off. Indeed, at the speeds we are talking about the thing is far more likely to impede rather than improve performance.

I was more interested in actual changes to an otherwise "standard" twin that actually affect performance and feel that make the tS such an alleged sublime improvement over any other "normal" twin. So I ask again - is it just suspension (including sway bars, bushings, etc.) and brakes?

[Samba86]

Appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts (and excellent pics).

[Veloist]

Originally Posted by CincyJohn

Well, I understand the desirability, and thus resale value, of having a factory built tS vs. one composed of aftermarket parts. As for the carbon wing, if I was after the full feel of the tS experience that Veloist seems to want wax so poetic about, I would probably leave it off. Indeed, at the speeds we are talking about the thing is far more likely to impede rather than improve performance.

I was more interested in actual changes to an otherwise "standard" twin that actually affect performance and feel that make the tS such an alleged sublime improvement over any other "normal" twin. So I ask again - is it just suspension (including sway bars, bushings, etc.) and brakes?

This is thread but it’s a lot of JDM STI tS stuff https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84332

For the USDM tS, it is really just suspension and chassis differences, Brembos, and a tuned VSC with higher threshold for slip.

USDM BRZ tS’s changes/additional in a nut shell (besides wheels and tires):

STI-tuned Sachs Dampers (tS specific-USDM)
STI Lowering Springs (tS specific-USDM)
STI Flexible V Braces (JDM part with USDM part no.)
STI Front Draw Stiffeners (USDM part no.)
- Attaches to tS-specific front crossmember
STI Rear Draw Stiffeners (USDM part no.)
- not sure if it attaches to the non-tS rear subframe

[dowroa]

Originally Posted by CincyJohn

Well, I understand the desirability, and thus resale value, of having a factory built tS vs. one composed of aftermarket parts. As for the carbon wing, if I was after the full feel of the tS experience that Veloist seems to want wax so poetic about, I would probably leave it off. Indeed, at the speeds we are talking about the thing is far more likely to impede rather than improve performance.

I was more interested in actual changes to an otherwise "standard" twin that actually affect performance and feel that make the tS such an alleged sublime improvement over any other "normal" twin. So I ask again - is it just suspension (including sway bars, bushings, etc.) and brakes?

Are you familiar with the thought experiment:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

[2020BRZtS]

Thank you for your perspective. Your experience with the tS confirms why I never felt any of the shortcomings of the platform described across the forum. It's simply a well-tuned stable driving experience. Everyone who has ridden in my car (no one wants to drive it) has said it's an amazing ride. The car I bought is the car I always wanted and it certainly does not disappoint.

[Dirty Harry]

Thanks for the great write up. I think your experience between the 1st and 2nd gen echoes myself and others on the forum who’ve driven both. Especially around steering feel.

I’m liking the looks of the GR86 this time around over the BRZ, I’m yet to see one in person though. It’ll be good to test drive once they’re available here and compare it to not only my 1st gen BRZ, but the 2nd gen BRZ too.

[CincyJohn]

Originally Posted by dowroa

Are you familiar with the thought experiment:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Thanks for that - I will remember it. And I really was not intending to offend any tS or other “special” version twin owner, I was just curious about the changes.

[Adam_L]

I'd opt for that tS any day of the week .... fugetaboutit !

[Robertw]

Should be able to improve your GR, ultimately the tS is just bolt ons from the STi parts catalog, the biggest improvement being the brembo's imo. The GR with a nice spring / damper combo, strut tower braces, and I'd imagine there will be aftermarket sub frame braces available, should help the car a lot. Improving the steering feel could also be as simple as stiffer rack bushings. Big advantage for the GR is that the chassis is greatly stiffened over the outgoing car, you can't improve that with bolt ons on a tS.

[dowroa]

Since you do have this unique perspective, do you have separated feelings on the My18 vs the MY20 tS, @Veloist?

I believe the Gen1s lifecycle had a more raw initial feel to the final models which appeared to be more refined (sachs dampers, stickier rubber, brembos). It feels like a page from the Porsche playbooks to have return customers to a brand through the lifecycle of a model / generations.

While it has been mentioned that the tS is more cosmetic changes than a rebuild like an WRX --> WRX STi or S209, did you experience the Gen1-base to Gen1 tS? PP models with Sachs + Brembos? While this can be seen as splitting hairs and ineffective changes relative to just STX / SCC prepping a Gen1, I think there is some good discussion to be had in the micro as well, if you have insight here.

To give back some:

With that said, I’m a bit lost as to how Subaru can make a better 2nd-generation BRZ tS than the 1st after the 2nd-Gen cars lost some charm present in the 1st-Gen already. The obvious equation standing in front of us is having more power and even more grip. But what can be done about the steering feel and feedback? Besides grip what can be done to make the car feel more special than previous tS’s and stock GR86’s/BRZ’s? Well, the only thing I could do would be to keep enjoying the GR86 and to not hold my breath so I could bask in the element of surprise.

I think the simple answer here is to add caster and more "factory" stock camber here. Other S209-like changes with pillowball changes and overall suspension rate changes + good dampers (adaptive / magnetic) could really give more feel back.

And, by the time the tS is ready, maybe tS-specific steering modes / adjustment could be something to give back more feel which you can't just do with bolt-ons.

Thanks for your time and insight, @Veloist.