Quick mini-rant on the FRS and what we use it for

[Tenament05]

Originally Posted by raul

The human ability to control speed is the same today as it was in the 90s. So that point falls flat on the floor.

bro we're not talking about human ability to control speed... we're talking about technology and adaptations of Moore's law in the automotive tech perspective . Point stands

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Tenament05

If forced induction is cheating, then do you not agree we shouldnt have fuel injection and go back to manual carbs? The carb camp may think that fuel injection is cheating as per your same argument. Do you think our ECUs are cheating because there are no requirement for electronics for a combustion engine to work?

Ha Ha! I remember reading this almost exact same thing back in the 70s in one of those paper things what were they called...oh ya magazines. It went to great lengths to explain how fuel injection was a fad that would never catch on because it did not give the proper fuel/air mix and everybody's engine was going to burn up from running too rich! Nothing was ever going to touch the carburetor and it was going to live on as the only way to get true power for eternity. So going by that (it is even possible I still have the mag someplace) we should all forget FI and run out and get 4 barrels!
Oh and back then FI stood for Fuel Injection and NA for a carburetor system and this change in meaning still messes with my head every now and then.

[jamies31]

Well said, Car always looks great out at cscs as well!

[Str8Ghostin]

Originally Posted by jamies31

Well said, Car always looks great out at cscs as well!

Appreciate it

[themadscientist]

Nope, the redtop SR20 was the first gen and that's what all the kids wanted then they wanted the blacktop, then they wanted the variable timing yadadyada, always chasing the next thing. You want the SR20 and the S platform with ten years of development to compare to? Ok, lets

Some people think the turbo is cheating. I don't agree, but as a nod to them and to you for bringing it up, we will look at a Spec S S15.

200 hp and 158 lbft versus the FRS' 200 hp and 151 lbft. 7lbft may not seem like much, but torque is where it's at and any more is welcome. Source: http://fastestlaps.com/cars/nissan_s...-s_autech.html

That torque certainly helps the Silvia deliver the 5.7 second 0-60 time that easily eclipses the FRS' 6.4. 0.7 seconds may not seem like a lot, but that should be more than enough for the FRS driver to be able to describe the Silvia's ass in vivid detail.

Ah, but the Silvia is 2640 lbs to the FRS' 2806. That, gentlemen, is called math. More torque in a lighter car? You know where to place your bet.

I had an S13 Q Silvia (Q denotes non turbo) and mine wasn't even the SR20, it was the CA18, the 1.8. I stripped it down as much as possible. No AC, no power steering, no interior. Just twp seats and a dash. I used to cut myself on the exposed steel inner doors. That car was loud. That car was hot and cold (Katy Perry rode in it, coincidence?) but it was FUN! On a roll I could harass most cars with it and many I could run with. Math strikes again. I know a nonturbo Silvia is is fun and I know the S15 would be a tough competitor to the FRS. You should run, don't walk, to your local Nissan dealer and buy one. Oh yeah, that's right.... Get it now?

When I drove the BRZ I immediately felt that same "adequate" power with that same sort of Chihuahua fearlessness that made the numbers seem bigger and the smile creep across my face like that old Silvia did. Importantly, however, the interior was plush and not likely to burn me, cut me or slice me. I had a six speaker stereo and dual zone AC and all the creature comforts of a nice mid-priced car, but this little thing was itching to get in trouble. All the positives with none of the negatives. The decision for me was easy. It's like Subaru and Toyota was reading my mind.

I think the frustrated people are absolutely right, though, when they say the engine has little power, when they say it's "slow." Comparatively, yes, it does and yes it is, but it seems that the power figure fit the designer's target. If you want a little bit more, the car can deliver that with some extra goodies thrown on; you are still in the envelope. If the power is a serious deal breaker for you, you are looking for a different car. There's nothing wrong with what you want and there's nothing wrong with the car, the two just don't match.

Jay gets it. The word is "fun."

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUIo_UMcrVE"]2013 Scion FR-S - Jay Leno's Garage - YouTube[/ame]

[Hydaral]

Originally Posted by Tenament05

damn.. I agreed with you up until the "turbo is cheating" argument..

If forced induction is cheating, then do you not agree we shouldnt have fuel injection and go back to manual carbs?

To clarify, cheating in the respect that it seems like a lot of manufacturers don't try and get the most out of a N/A engine, they seem to say "don't worry about engineering the engine to the best of our ability, let's just whack a turbo/supercharger on it".

I see this all the time when reading reviews of cars. For example, a while ago I was reading two reviews next to each other in the paper, the Jaguar XJR with a 5.0 litre V8 SC engine and the Porsche 918 with a 4.6 litre N/A. Yes I know there is quite a price difference there, but the supercharged Jag is 92.8 hp/litre and the N/A Porsche is 132 hp/litre.

Every engine produced today should be getting at least 80 hp/litre N/A before going FI.

[Mototilla]

This car would be so much better with FI and a longer 6th gear OD for daily use. It should see 70 mph @2700 rpm and have more guts in traffic.

[airjonny]

The problem is with the dip in torque in the mid range. But with a full exhaust and tune, it should be gone. When I get one, that will be one of the first things I'll address.

[Nessal]

Fuck the haters.

[Nessal]

Originally Posted by themadscientist

Those questions you get are actually "why didn't you do what I think is right?" So far, most of the negative comment I get regarding my choice, (I get them already and I haven't even taken delivery) demonstrate that the detractor has not really understood what the intent, or at least the arguable intent of the car was.

"It's only got 200hp!"

So does that. Everybody thought it was a gift from god a few years ago. 202hp and 203 lbft Source: Nissan SR20DET - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



So did that, but, again, it also walked on water. 200hp and 133 lbft Source: Honda B engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



What changed all of the sudden?
The FA20 pushes 200hp and 151 lbft of torque, what's fucking with you?

"It's slow!"

Oh really?

The Redtop SR20DET would push the 180SX from 0-60 in 6.5 seconds with a 1/4 mile down in 14.5. Source: Nissan 180SX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The B18C Integra Type R would snap from 0-60 in 6.7 seconds and roll over a 1/4 mile in 14.9. Source: http://www.autorooster.com/0-60-time...acura-integra/

That "weak" motor pushes the "slow" FRS/BRZ from 0-60 in 6.4 seconds and to the end of the drag strip in 14.8. Source: http://www.0-60specs.com/scion-fr-s-0-60-times/


That's a tossup across these three cars, two that fanbois for over a decade have worshipped and complained that they couldn't get in the states. Toybaru FINALLY gives people what they said they wanted (those pizza-faced kids whining back then are now grown, employed and able to buy new cars) and people are still bitching? Weaksauce.

The FRS does all that nipping at the heels of the 180SX even though it's 100lbs heavier than the Nissan and pulling harder from a dig and holding off the 2500 lb Teggy while dragging 300lbs more weight down the track.

Sources:
http://www.scion.com/cars/FR-S2014/specs/
Nissan 180SX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://fastestlaps.com/cars/honda_in...ype_r_dc2.html

Yeah, you know, if it seems like everything sucks, maybe it's not everything, maybe it's you.

What changed was time. It's hardly fair to compare those old engines with new. In their time, those engines were very good. Now...just average.

[themadscientist]

Yeah, they aren't relevent anymore.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eZB-6oVVZk"]World's quickest Nissan SR20 Silvia (H-pattern gearbox) - YouTube[/ame]

[ckkone]

I drove my friends WRX the other day, it felt like a truck. I agree with everything the OP said, this is the perfect commuter / weekend racer.

[Tenament05]

Originally Posted by Hydaral

To clarify, cheating in the respect that it seems like a lot of manufacturers don't try and get the most out of a N/A engine, they seem to say "don't worry about engineering the engine to the best of our ability, let's just whack a turbo/supercharger on it".

I see this all the time when reading reviews of cars. For example, a while ago I was reading two reviews next to each other in the paper, the Jaguar XJR with a 5.0 litre V8 SC engine and the Porsche 918 with a 4.6 litre N/A. Yes I know there is quite a price difference there, but the supercharged Jag is 92.8 hp/litre and the N/A Porsche is 132 hp/litre.

Every engine produced today should be getting at least 80 hp/litre N/A before going FI.

Two problems here:

- Discounting overall powerband with max hp/litre metric
- Assuming that is indeed what manufacturers do. Many put FI onto vehicles because it's an easier way to meet gas mileage and emissions targets