Official: Toyota FT-1 Concept / First New Supra Prototype Spotted!

[Adam_L]

Originally Posted by rvoll

If you define an "enthusiast" as someone who mods their cars, then you are right.

No, I don't define an "enthusiast" as someone who has to / must mod their vehicle.

Modding is an option, not a prerequisite to then owning/ driving a sports car. 4cyl or 6cyl , I prescribe to the perspective of leaving the cars mechanics mostly stock ( minus the suspension, if you're trying to achieve something suspension wise (at the track, or even DD), but you're not toying with the mechanics of the engine). If adding FI to a stock NA engine ( not swapping out internals for something that'll take the increased stress of FI) decreases engine life, well that's a bummer

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by HKz

sorry for the late reply..long day ^^...but isn't working with another manufacturer and using their parts & assembly lines normally indications of this? We know how difficult it is for them to make a business case for these things in the first place.. Plus I would think if costs weren't truly an issue here then Toyota would be totally proud and happy to come out and say they are developing a manual too We know Toyota can come out with amazing stuff on their own so besides being concerned with the costs, what sort of benefits are there with platform sharing? I'm happy & ready to look like a fool if that ensures they include a MT

See that is just it. They haven't come out and said anything yet. They certainly have not said they didn't go with a MT because of costs. People just assumed it but then stated it as fact and it has been repeated so much that now it seems like the truth even though it is still pure speculation at this point.

[Captain Snooze]

*lightbulb*
Majority of market wants auto.
What I think we are seeing here is an example of the vocal minority.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Adam_L

No, I don't define an "enthusiast" as someone who has to / must mod their vehicle.

I always say you have two types of car people.

Car Enthusiasts: People are enthusiastic about cars. They like to look at them and they like to have impressive numbers that they can compare to their friends. They go to car meets and walk around looking at cars and talking to others about what they have done to their cars.

Driving Enthusiasts: People who are enthusiastic about driving. They will drive the crap out of any car you throw at them. Shifting is part of driving so if you remove that from the car they will be bored. They go to autox and track events and walk around talking to others about driving lines, braking points, etc.

You can fall into both categories but cars like the MX5 and Twins tend to attract drivers.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

I always say you have two types of car people.

Car Enthusiasts: People are enthusiastic about cars. They like to look at them and they like to have impressive numbers that they can compare to their friends. They go to car meets and walk around looking at cars and talking to others about what they have done to their cars.

Driving Enthusiasts: People who are enthusiastic about driving. They will drive the crap out of any car you throw at them. Shifting is part of driving so if you remove that from the car they will be bored. They go to autox and track events and walk around talking to others about driving lines, braking points, etc.

You can fall into both categories but cars like the MX5 and Twins tend to attract drivers.

Those are pretty narrow sub categories of the whole automotive scene. Many enthusiasts would have zero interest in doing either of those things and wouldn't give the cars we like a second glance.

There are:
Minivan enthusiasts.
Pickup truck enthusiasts.
Luxury sedan enthusiasts.
Hot Rod enthusiasts.
Low rider enthusiasts.
Jeep enthusiasts.
Touring enthusiasts.
Unicycle enthusiasts.


The list could go on for pages. To consider only a couple of sub groups that tend to agree with our point of view as "enthusiasts" is a trap.


I find it hard to believe that every single car at autox or track is MT nor that if it isn't then that person is "bored" with the events.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by ermax

Shifting is part of driving so if you remove that from the car they will be bored.

If that is all it takes for them to be bored, then they are shift enthusiasts not a driving enthusiast. I enjoy driving pretty much anything, size, shape, transmission, engine size be damned. If it's got more than one wheel (sorry no unicycles here) I'll find a way to enjoy the experience of getting it out in its native habitat and pushing it.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

If that is all it takes for them to be bored, then they are shift enthusiasts not a driving enthusiast. I enjoy driving pretty much anything, size, shape, transmission, engine size be damned. If it's got more than one wheel (sorry no unicycles here) I'll find a way to enjoy the experience of getting it out in its native habitat and pushing it.

Convince me you wouldn't give it a shot!

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by ermax

Driving Enthusiasts: People who are enthusiastic about driving. They will drive the crap out of any car you throw at them. Shifting is part of driving so if you remove that from the car they will be bored. They go to autox and track events and walk around talking to others about driving lines, braking points, etc.

I would not get "bored" if I had an automated system that could shave tenths off my shift times and allow more consistent and later threshold braking. I'm finding at some tracks I end up having to either give a quick upshift before some braking zones or let it hit the rev limiter. A manually actuated clutchless transmission that could do that in ~250 ms or better, repeatedly and reliably and smoothly, would be tremendously appreciated vs. me at probably ~500 ms.

I don't *need* a manual clutch in my sports cars any more than I need to have manually controlled ignition advance. But the positives (quicker shift times, consistently smooth downshifts in braking zones, not having to clutch all the time in stop/go traffic) need to outweigh the negatives (cost, weight, potential for not giving the "right" or expected amount of slip in stop/go, etc. etc.)

Of course it would be much better to have both available so buyers can choose based on their hierarchy of wants/needs...

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Of course it would be much better to have both available so buyers can choose based on their hierarchy of wants/needs...

Ultimately this is the best solution.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I'm finding at some tracks I end up having to either give a quick upshift before some braking zones or let it hit the rev limiter. A manually actuated clutchless transmission that could do that in ~250 ms or better, repeatedly and reliably and smoothly, would be tremendously appreciated vs. me at probably ~500 ms.

I suspect in your example bouncing the limiter would be your fastest option. DSGs don't like changing direction. If you are coming up on a braking zone and have just enough room left for a shift from say 4th to 5th it will make that shift real quick yes. But then it queues up 6th when you actually need 4th again for the turn so you get to wait around for it to queue up 4th.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Those are pretty narrow sub categories of the whole automotive scene. Many enthusiasts would have zero interest in doing either of those things and wouldn't give the cars we like a second glance.

There are:
Minivan enthusiasts.
Pickup truck enthusiasts.
Luxury sedan enthusiasts.
Hot Rod enthusiasts.
Low rider enthusiasts.
Jeep enthusiasts.
Touring enthusiasts.
Unicycle enthusiasts.


The list could go on for pages. To consider only a couple of sub groups that tend to agree with our point of view as "enthusiasts" is a trap.


I find it hard to believe that every single car at autox or track is MT nor that if it isn't then that person is "bored" with the events.

True there are many groups but we are talking about the Supra and the Twins. Ofcourse when someone says enthusiast in this context they are referring to car enthusiasts and/or driving enthusiasts. I will say it again. This debate started when I said cars like the FD, MX5, Twins, 240SX, S2000, ect need to stay around to preserve the MT. Those are all the types of cars that attract driving enthusiasts. Driving enthusiasts will drive almost anything you throw at them as long as it's a challenge. MT adds to the challenge. Okay so you don't "need" a MT but it's preferred. You are right that not everyone at an autox has a manual. But most do I would say. I will get a headcount at the next event I go to just out of curiosity.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by ermax

DSGs don't like changing direction. If you are coming up on a braking zone and have just enough room left for a shift from say 4th to 5th it will make that shift real quick yes. But then it queues up 6th when you actually need 4th again for the turn so you get to wait around for it to queue up 4th.

I don't think you can lump all automated transmissions into the same "DSG" category. I don't think they all need to have the next gearchange up or down queued up in advance. Also, I would bet some automated gearboxes are already configured to "learn" tracks and "know" what gear changes are coming up next. If that doesn't exist now it will soon. And for sure if you get on the brakes it's not a huge leap for AI to deduce that the next gearchange will be "down", or that if you stay on the gas and speed continues to climb that the next change will be "up".

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

True there are many groups but we are talking about the Supra and the Twins. Ofcourse when someone says enthusiast in this context they are referring to car enthusiasts and/or driving enthusiasts. I will say it again. This debate started when I said cars like the FD, MX5, Twins, 240SX, S2000, ect need to stay around to preserve the MT. Those are all the types of cars that attract driving enthusiasts. Driving enthusiasts will drive almost anything you throw at them as long as it's a challenge. MT adds to the challenge. Okay so you don't "need" a MT but it's preferred. You are right that not everyone at an autox has a manual. But most do I would say. I will get a headcount at the next event I go to just out of curiosity.

If you want to narrow it down to autox and track enthusiasts I can agree. That is probably someplace around 5% of the owners of the cars you listed though. The car/driving enthusiasts that own the bulk of your list have never even considered hitting a track and never will. They can still enjoy the cars or driving them regardless of transmission type. The "challenge" of driving MT is your (and many others) personal preference but should not be extended to all drivers.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Convince me you wouldn't give it a shot!

Well, OK, those I would, and admittedly I was referring to the pedal kind and did think about these later thinking someone is going to call me out on those. Thanks for not disappointing.