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Old 04-10-2012, 11:47 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by ichitaka05 View Post
remap ECU will fix that dip
However, the question is: will you lose elsewhere to fix the dip?
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:47 PM   #30
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remap ECU will fix that dip
No doubt but what will be the unintended side effects of a reflash like that? There must be some reason the engineers left that dip there.
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:57 PM   #31
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:59 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Snoopyalien24 View Post
How much ($$) would these come out to ?
$200~$850... depends on which tune shop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fast4you View Post
However, the question is: will you lose elsewhere to fix the dip?
IDK, we don't have any re-map ECU for FR-S, so can't answer that... BUT I can answer this. I have iSPEED's re-mapped ECU for my Impreza & no, I didn't lose anywhere in TQ line. Only side effect for me, is I have stage 2, so it require 91 or higher octane (which require to begin w anyways).

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Originally Posted by Scion FR-S View Post
No doubt but what will be the unintended side effects of a reflash like that? There must be some reason the engineers left that dip there.
They left it there, so aftermarket shops can profit. Like reply on 2fast4you, we don't have remap ECU for FR-S, so we don't know. From my pass experience, it doesn't lose any tq curve ('00 Impreza), it helps smooth that dip. Not 100% fully fix it, but it's noticeable difference in dip.
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Old 04-11-2012, 12:02 AM   #33
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No doubt but what will be the unintended side effects of a reflash like that? There must be some reason the engineers left that dip there.
Cost.
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Old 04-11-2012, 12:03 AM   #34
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Cost.
That may be true... but low cost as $200 isn't bad for fixing the dip in TQ line
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Old 04-11-2012, 12:08 AM   #35
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That may be true... but low cost as $200 isn't bad for fixing the dip in TQ line
Probably more. Open source tunes are about ~$400. Cobb AP are about $600 and only come with a base map, add $400 for a tune. Who's to say it's a tuning issue and not a cam or intake manifold issue? We'll see once people start putting these under the knife, but I have the niggling suspicion it's a design constraint.
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Old 04-11-2012, 12:14 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses View Post
Probably more. Open source tunes are about ~$400. Cobb AP are about $600 and only come with a base map, add $400 for a tune. Who's to say it's a tuning issue and not a cam or intake manifold issue? We'll see once people start putting these under the knife, but I have the niggling suspicion it's a design constraint.
Only time will tell. I'm just pulling those numbers from re-mapped ECU for my Impreza.
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Old 04-11-2012, 12:16 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ichitaka05 View Post
remap ECU will fix that dip
Might be remap, but I'm starting to think that the intake/exhaust headers could be playing a much larger role than previously thought.

The car has an intake cam optimized for 6500ish rpm, yet it manages to pull off nearly the same torque at 3000ish. IMO, now the picture is coming together, the car SHOULD have really bad low end torque due to the cam, but the low rpm torque manages to match the high rpm torque.

Let's look at a car that has a very good intake system, the LFA. The 3 stage intake puts the peak torque close to the maximum possible at all rpm, and you'll notice that the peak torque is dropping consistently as the rpms go down. The volumetric efficiency here is limited by the intake cam.

That's what the FA20 should look like with a variable intake, albeit more flat because it has a smaller rpm range to work with. What we're seeing is low end torque matching top end torque. So I think what may be going on is that they realized the engine had no bottom end, and thus decided to compromise the top end with an intake optimized for VE in the 2000-3000rpm range. Hi Dimman, could this perhaps be the answer to your missing torque theory?

I wonder if anyone has intake runner lengths.
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Old 04-11-2012, 12:18 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses View Post
Cost.
It was free for my car. For a stock car you can find tuned maps on osecuroms.org and you just need to borrow someone's cable to flash it (or buy one for $99). Once you have mods you need a street tune which there are guys that will do it for $150 or you can learn to do it yourself. It will take time to crack the ecu though I'm sure.
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Old 04-11-2012, 12:21 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
Might be remap, but I'm starting to think that the intake/exhaust headers could be playing a much larger role than previously thought.

The car has an intake cam optimized for 6500ish rpm, yet it manages to pull off nearly the same torque at 3000ish. IMO, now the picture is coming together, the car SHOULD have really bad low end torque due to the cam, but the low rpm torque manages to match the high rpm torque.

Let's look at a car that has a very good intake system, the LFA. The 3 stage intake puts the peak torque close to the maximum possible at all rpm, and you'll notice that the peak torque is dropping consistently as the rpms go down. The volumetric efficiency here is limited by the intake cam.

That's what the FA20 should look like with a variable intake, albeit more flat because it has a smaller rpm range to work with. What we're seeing is low end torque matching top end torque. So I think what may be going on is that they realized the engine had no bottom end, and thus decided to compromise the top end with an intake optimized for VE in the 2000-3000rpm range. Hi Dimman, could this perhaps be the answer to your missing torque theory?

I wonder if anyone has intake runner lengths.
Yes, you're correction on intake & exhaust. It's all the Subie engine have problem with. I wrote "re-map ECU" instead of port & polish in & out & cams cause those cost a lot more than re-map ECU.

Cams: $300~$750
Port & polish Manifold: $250~$450
Port & polish in & out heads: $600~up
Plus labor & down time of car

vs re-map ECU: $200~up
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Old 04-11-2012, 12:32 AM   #40
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Well IMO the cams are looking pretty good right now, they're making power at high rpm, where they should be, I think to make use of bigger cams you'd need to raise the rev limit a bit. I'm super interested in seeing what different intakes will do though, as this is the first answer I've come up with to the "missing torque question" that makes complete sense, lol.
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Old 04-11-2012, 12:46 AM   #41
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Well IMO the cams are looking pretty good right now, they're making power at high rpm, where they should be, I think to make use of bigger cams you'd need to raise the rev limit a bit. I'm super interested in seeing what different intakes will do though, as this is the first answer I've come up with to the "missing torque question" that makes complete sense, lol.
bigger cams?
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Old 04-11-2012, 12:54 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Scion FR-S View Post
Not a fan either but I doubt it will be that noticeable in most driving as all it does is slow the power curve upwards movement between 3200 - 4200 rpm. Now if that dip were in the HP curve itself it would be a disaster.
A sudden loss of 20 lb/ft of torque will be noticeable.

Nice to see what appear to be dynojet numbers.

Give it some boost, the car will be legendary.
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