Motortrend: 1989 BMW E30 M3 vs 2013 Scion FR-S vs 2013 Volkswagen GTI!

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by _hollywood

GTI as tested 32k
FRS as tested 25K


soooooo how are they even close? rwd 6 speed manual lightweight vs fwd 4 door dsg trasnsmission...

this was a horrible comparison, the M3 is cool but also does not relate to this car from a competitive standpoint, waste of a video

and it should be turbo vs turbo, NA vs NA, sticky tires on the frs would of beat the GTI lap time, hell give them both identical race tires and still i bet the frs would edge it out...

if you dont think the frs should be compared to anything, you should probably steer clear of threads with "vs" in the title. many of us here appreciate comparing things because they are different even if this particular video was poorly executed.

[chutrain]

Seriously, how many own or driven all three?

I own two of them and driven my buddy's GTI. They all do things differently, and can reward the driver in different ways. Each obviously feel different and all have flaws. Nothing in this price range will be perfect.

Since this a forum catered to the FRS/BRZ, the comments are more than likely biased as most are talking from only one standpoint.

This is how I see them.

BRZ/FR-S
The twins are really phenomenal cars for what they offer for the price. The handling and precise feeling is truly up there with more pricey cars. But there is a lot of compliance in the drivetrain that you start to feel when you start to push the car. You can feel it in the rear end and when shifting. But most of this can be fixed fairly cheaply. The suspension can be a bit taxing on the rough and undulating road surfaces, so this shows that the suspension is developed toward the sport side of things. Nothing wrong with it, but people can have different opinions.

The brakes modulate well and have decent grip. For street use I have not reached a point where they start to fade. The pedals are good for heel-toe, and the rev rise and fall easily. The transmission is very precise and those shifts are short and smooth, except for the pesky second gear when the fluids are cold. Gearing is good with the six speed and the 4.10 diff in the rear, but a 4.45 diff will give the car more pep down low which would be great around town. Just shows that compromises were made to make the car still liveable for daily commutes.

The interior is good, but nothing to brag about when compared to the GTI. I have the BRZ Limited for reference. But it is well laid out and everything is very intuitive. The interior for the front is good enough. It just fits my friend that is just under 6'5" after some tweaks to the seat. The rear is useless as we all know. The trunk is decent for most things, like groceries and smaller items. But once you get slightly longer or bulkier items into the mix, things start to get tougher and you'll will wish for a bigger car. However those are far and few between as I usually plan in advance to dictate what car to use.

Styling for the twins is good. I still think the companies could have done just a tad more to give it more of an exotic/concept look. A lot of the lines are very classic and clean, while some styling cues do take a little getting used to. Certain lines could have been more exaggerated for a more stunning presence, but instead create some econobox lines. Don't get me wrong, I still love how the car looks and people are constantly looking and coming up to ask questions.

GTI
The GTI is a great daily driver that will not beat you up for the long drives. The suspension is set up more for all around use from city to highway and everything in between. It'll plow as expected with a front drive vehicle, but the Germans do have their tricks to make it more bearable. The car is not easily upset over bumpy roads compared to my BRZ. The car does sway a bit and this is granted with the smaller sways and high center of gravity. This was obviously the compromise when catering the towards everyday comfort.

The seating position is totally different as you sit higher and will cause less fatigue over longer distances. In comparison the GTI you feel like you are sitting on top of the car, and the FR-S/BRZ you are sitting in the car. The interior feels very upscale when compared to the twins. The materials and switches feel similar to an Audi in some respects, and this can be done since there are a lot of parts bin swapping between the brands, which in turn keeps costs down. The driving of the car is catered more towards the daily driving duties. It is a lot more compliant and after jumping from one car to the other, you can definitely feel things loosen up and in some cases a bit vague. The hatch can fit that baby seat, and folding the seats can net you some decent space to swallow up a good amount of cargo.

The clutch is extremely easy to modulate, and if you stall in this car you are an idiot. It is really that forgiving, but in return you will be greeted by that vague feeling. It could be good for others, but that is my opinon. The shifter feels long and lose. The gearing feels good for highway use, and the motor feels plenty strong for highway passing. But that turbo does lag down low, so around town you are depending on that 2.0L to get the car going rather than the force feeding of the turbo.

The styling is very faithful to the German styling, at least for this segment of cars. It's nothing controversial or groundbreaking. It kinda follows their traditional shape, and it's been doing well over the years. Look at Porsche, how much have they changed? So in this category, the GTI does not quite match up to the twins in the styling department.

Overall, this is not a bad car. I would not personally own one, but would not knock it if one were to buy one. It has it quirks and positives just like any car.

E30 M3
A lot of people seem to hate on the old classic. If you have not driven one that is well maintained after the 25+ years, then you are truly missing out. The steering is telepathic and you really know what they rear end is doing at all times. This is not BS. Granted my car has come a long way and far from stock. However after having the opportunity to drive one of my friend's completely stock car, all I can say was how much of a pleasure it was to taste the original formula again.

Suspension was the highlight of this car. There was just something pure and straightforward with how the car handles. Things always happened progressively. A stock suspension soaks up the road imperfections nicely and sporty enough for higher speeds. It does exhibit body roll, but the car had great turn-in and can manage those turns with precision. For a car that was developed in the mid-80's, it can definitely hold its own.

The interior is very straightforward and business-like. Great leather wrapped seats and plenty of space in the rear seats to hold two addition people. No slanted roof to encroach on the rear passenger headroom. Visibility is excellent out the windows compared to the little slits on the twins. These cars can be daily driven, and there are owners that do that, but they do tend to be buzzy and the high revs on the highway from 60-80 mph can very easily wear on you. The five speed is good, but not as precise and short as the twins, but a lot better than the GTI.

Another highlight and supporting cast to the suspension was the motor. This was a 2.3L high revving four banger that sounds mechanical and purposeful. This motor does not wake up until you reach the northern hemisphere of the tach. Anything above 4.5k was where the fun begins. And this was a motor that you had to drive it like you stole it to fully enjoy the experience. With the 4.10 rear diff and the motor always buzzing over 3k, you are pretty much always in the powerband. These motors were always given the stigma of being high strung and temperamental. That is not the case. As with any motor, as long as you maintain it properly you will see many miles. There are plenty of 150k+ cars with original motors and putting out good compression numbers. There is even a 400k+ car running around with the original internals.

The 80's were all about the box flares. During that decade the DTM series was the hot racing circuit and Mercedes was doing their thing. BMW had wanted to enter this series as well. This series dictated that all cars had to run stock bodies and suspension geometries. All manufactures used one of their current production line cars to create these DTM cars. What BMW did was create the track car first, and then release to the public. So that is way there are boxy flares, the unique bumpers, the bump on the rear of the roof, the boy racer rear wing, and different angled rear window. It was not for show. As the seasons progressed many evolutions of these DTM cars were released. BMW was required to sell 500 road going cars a year and they were easily able to surpass those sales goals. Love it or hate it, this is classic BMW.

They call this the benchmark for a reason. It was either Evo or Car magazine did a comparo of all M cars past and present, and the E30 M3 Sport Evolution was able to snag the title from cars that were bigger, faster, more expensive, and in some cases had an additinal 6 cylinders more. If this car was not good or relevant today, it would have long been forgotten about.

[BentAnat]

I owned a Mk5 GTI and have driven a mate's Mk4 quite a bit (though not an Mk6).
Thanks to various mechanic friends, I have driven an E90 M3, as well as the previous gen (whatever that was) M3.

While owning that, I realised that "fun" and "good" don't often get said in the same sentence. Also, "fun" and "fast" are not always the same thing.

There's no doubt in the world that the GTI is quicker off the lights, has more leg room in the back, better equipment and more boot space.

The 86 makes you feel (to paraphrase a certain Irishman) "Like Ayrton Senna at every roundabout".

Fun is a completely subjective measure. Some people get a metaphorical hard-on for being able to set great laptimes. People Like that adore any Nissan Skyline GTR product. They also often worship at the throne of Audi RS, and would like nothing more than a Lamborghini (or an R8). I say all of that with the utmost respect.

The other side of the coin enjoys driving more than laptimes. They enjoy a car that fights back a bit. These people prefer M-series to Skylines, they often like a bit of muscle, and they'd rather have Ferrari's and the eye-rolling madness of RWD manual Lambos from the 80s.

Then there's the big divide between people who look at a car as an everyday requirement, and those that want a second car.
When considering a primary car, practicality matters. When looking for a second or third ride, the practicality becomes irrelevant.

The guys in the video clearly differ on both those measures, and as such would never come to an agreement.

[SnapOv3st3r]

Originally Posted by fatoni

after a day of driving, it was slower. if people could just be honest with themselves and realize that they are much closer to these guys than pobst, i think people would see the value of the gti.

look, i hate that guy as much as you all do. he is annoying and hypocritical, but that doesnt change what happened that day. you cant say that winning is winning but that doesnt apply here. its just as hypocritical as that guy is.

The whole lap time debate gets squashed the moment a patron steps foot inside a dealership. People don't go to MotorTrend and look at lap times and then base their purchase off of it.

Being closer to Pobst or these poor smucks is irrelevant. Can you drift a GTI? That's just as valid of a reason as to think their crappy lap time is.

[Meehow86]

I used to own a GTI (Mk6). It looked good, drove well, had a bunch of gadgets, and was quick. But I would never trade my BRZ for another one. Its all just based on personal preference.

[Saber_TRD]

Originally Posted by CBR600RR

@Saber_TRD

the FR-S on harder tires is a perfect reason for the FR-S to be slower than the GTI

putting both cars on the same tires would be a way of equaling the playing field.

sure you could put a downforce kit on just the FR-S and it could give it the extra grip on the stock tires to allow it to beat the GTI, but then it has a down force advantage.

if you are comparing stock car versus stock car. the best way to get an equal comparison it to put them on the same make of tire.

nuff said

Every car vs car comparison is going to have one car with an advantage in some areas over the other and vice versa. By your logic they should only compare like cars (FR-S vs FR-S or GTI vs GTI) and there is no point in comparing two different cars (FR-S vs GTI). I'm sorry, but that's not how it works. The FR-S comes with those tires and the GTI comes with it's tires. That's how they are stock, that's how you compare. It's not an excuse and making the excuse screams poor loser.

Originally Posted by SnapOv3st3r

I race all the time, I know winning is winning. Doesn't mean I have to be impressed though. If anything they did Dodge a favor by letting them know what was wrong with the car.


However, that does not apply here, cause I'm sure the suspension of the Twins, the aero dynamics, the curb weight and all other factors OTHER than the tires are superior to that of a GTI.

They took the record for the track and you are not impressed?

[CBR600RR]

Originally Posted by Saber_TRD

I am a poor loser.

[ZmZMWagon]

Originally Posted by _hollywood

GTI as tested 32k
FRS as tested 25K


soooooo how are they even close? rwd 6 speed manual lightweight vs fwd 4 door dsg trasnsmission...

this was a horrible comparison, the M3 is cool but also does not relate to this car from a competitive standpoint, waste of a video

and it should be turbo vs turbo, NA vs NA, sticky tires on the frs would of beat the GTI lap time, hell give them both identical race tires and still i bet the frs would edge it out...

Add $5k for markups on the FRS and take $3K off for incentives on the GTI.

Who really cares anyways? Two different vehicles for two different purposes. I can think of 2 other vehicles that would dust both of these, Mazdaspeed 3 and Focus ST.

I still love the FRS and feel it is the more sportier car out of the 2 of them, but the GTI would give the best of both worlds.

Drive what makes you smile.

[Turbowned]

Originally Posted by MVJ1975

There is no way on earth I would buy a 30 year old BMW E30 over a new car, with a warranty, with modern safety features, and Japanese reliability, for the same money, or over the GTI for that matter.

I love the E30. I owned an E30. But it was a rattletrap and required constant attention to keep running, and that was in 1996.

The E30 is fine for a project or a toy car, but not as a daily driver.

I drive my E30 318is daily. 30mpg, bitchessss! And yes it requires constant attention, because the previous owner did nothing to it and now I have to do it all, but it is what it is.

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

As for the E30, I'd hate to have to repair it and even worse to get in an accident in it.

E30's are cheap as $#!t to fix. M3 would be expensive on the bodywork side, sure, but parts are super-cheap. It definitely helps to buy one that's all up-to-date, though.

[nonicname]

conclusion the GTI is a car the FRS is a toy.
I love my GTI and I still want an frs but as a second car which I can't afford, so I'm keeping my GTI.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

E30's are cheap as $#!t to fix. M3 would be expensive on the bodywork side, sure, but parts are super-cheap. It definitely helps to buy one that's all up-to-date, though.

Aren't the old straight 4 Bimmers as a whole much cheaper to maintain and more reliable than the straight 6's? I never saw any numbers so I never knew for a fact.

[SnapOv3st3r]

Originally Posted by Saber_TRD

They took the record for the track and you are not impressed?

No, sorry not a Viper fan. Would drive one if someone gave it to me, just not buy one if I was to have that amount of $.

[frosty86]

Originally Posted by nonicname

conclusion the GTI is a car the FRS is a toy.

[ThatManAnt]

My choices before i got my FR-S were either the FR-S or the GTI. I drove the GTI, its a good car. But for 33k as tested, if I were to put 8k more into my FR-S since i paid 25 it would blow the GTI away lol